# Can you really make a difference? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587 "2003-12-29T15:20:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/41 "2003-12-31T00:44:34Z")
The reason you’re obliged to purchase a ticket for your train journey is that there’s a guy standing in front of the train who won’t **let** you past without a ticket. Which means that, in order to be obliged to not throw away your recyclables or to drive something that isn’t a gas guzzler, we need a guy standing in front of the trash basket or SUV dealership who won’t **let** you past (e.g. cops on every corner, or outlawing SUVs). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/42 "2003-12-31T01:08:25Z")
Not so in my case; many of the rural train stations here in the UK are unmanned and the guards on the train don’t check tickets all that often (and when they do check and find me without a ticket, in most cases, I’d just have to buy one then and there, or at worst, pay a modest penalty fare) By boarding the train without a ticket, even taking into consideration penalty fares and those times when I’d have to buy a ticket from the patrolling guard, I could travel by rail for a quarter of the normal price. Why shouldn’t i? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/43 "2003-12-31T01:25:26Z")
Isn’t this just the old Conservative versus Liberal debate in another guise? ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/44 "2003-12-31T13:11:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Not so in my case; many of the rural train stations here in the UK are unmanned and the guards on the train don’t check tickets all that often (and when they do check and find me without a ticket, in most cases, I’d just have to buy one then and there, or at worst, pay a modest penalty fare) > By boarding the train without a ticket, even taking into consideration penalty fares and those times when I’d have to buy a ticket from the patrolling guard, I could travel by rail for a quarter of the normal price. Why shouldn’t i? \*\* There’s probably not much of a difference between this and what I’m saying. There might be a slightly difference in that what you’re doing is breaking a law, or at least a customer/provider agreement. I like this example though. You and the train people sort of have a tacit agreement. The train people are saying: “we’re only going to do random checks to keep costs down. If we find enough violators, then we’re going to have to increase the number of checks, hence raise our costs, hence raise our ticket prices.” But of course, that’s not really enough of an incentive for _YOU_ to buy a ticket. You’re not going to raise their numbers enough. BUT, there’s probably some level of fellow participation you get to where this thinking will end up hurting you (and the group). If, say, only 10 people rode the train and they checked every other day, and you never bought a ticket, THAT might be significant enough so that the increase in prices goes into effect to cover your delinquency (\<- sp?). As someone already brought up somewhere else, game theory considerations come into play at some level (_prisoner’s dilemma_ might be the reduction to the 2-person case here, at least if you cook the example enough). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I Love Me, Vol. I \* > **Isn’t this just the old Conservative versus Liberal debate in another guise?** No. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/45 "2003-12-31T13:21:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Trunk \* > \*\*There’s probably not much of a difference between this and what I’m saying. > > There might be a slightly difference in that what you’re doing is breaking a law, or at least a customer/provider agreement. > > I like this example though. You and the train people sort of have a tacit agreement. The train people are saying: “we’re only going to do random checks to keep costs down. If we find enough violators, then we’re going to have to increase the number of checks, hence raise our costs, hence raise our ticket prices.”\*\* I think this is right; it is a contract between myself and the train company (or at least it should be). Isn’t then the equivalent in respect of voting and polluting the ‘social contract’ - the tacit agreement that we will all work together in a certain way? (BTW, in reality I never fail to buy a ticket) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/46 "2003-12-31T13:22:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I Love Me, Vol. I \* > \*\*Isn’t this just the old Conservative versus Liberal debate in another guise? \*\* I think it is actually a version of the puzzle of the straw that broke the camel’s back. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/47 "2003-12-31T13:44:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*I think this is right; it is a contract between myself and the train company (or at least it should be). > Isn’t then the equivalent in respect of voting and polluting the ‘social contract’ - the tacit agreement that we will all work together in a certain way? > \*\* I suppose that would be an equivalent, but the “social contract” is a little harder to define than a business contract. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*(BTW, in reality I never fail to buy a ticket) \*\* In reality, I don’t vote. I don’t want an SUV either, though. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/48 "2003-12-31T17:37:40Z")
Yes, you can really make a difference. Not in the world maybe, but in your own life, which is why you are here. Change comes from within yourself and flows out to others. Work on it. Love ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/49 "2003-12-31T18:53:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Trunk \* > \*\*This is actually off-topic because I’m not discussing specifically voting or driving an SUV here. I’m trying to discuss the individual’s responsibility to behave in the collective. > > Still, to address your “civic duty”. . . > > Voting is a “privilege” not an obligation. Paying your taxes is an obligation as an American. Registering for the draft is an obligation. Voting isn’t. It’s a privelege to vote that some societies aren’t afforded. If you choose not to partake, you’re not going to get arrested. > > A mild, yet effective, and _beneficial_ form of brainwashing (I use that word very loosely) has gotten a lot of people to believe it is their obligation to vote. It is no such thing. > > Why do people think it’s their civic duty? For the opposite reason I’m talking about in this thread. They think that if they don’t vote, they’re tearing the fabric of democracy and America. They’re not tearing the fabric. They’re removing one thread in a 10 foot wide sheet with 100 thread count. It has no effect whatsoever on democracy or America. \*\* You’re right: this isn’t necessarily the thread in which to discuss this, but I have to disagree with your points. I _do_ see voting as both an obligation and a privledge. It’s an obligation because our governmental process depends on the voters expressing their preferences. It’s a civic duty because we _benefit_ from the process, and thus should participate in it. No, you won’t be arrested if you don’t vote, but you’re not doing your duty as a citizen. Secondly, it’s my opinion that the idea that one’s vote isn’t important leads to the pathetic voter turnout that we see during election time. Too many people have that point of view. I think it’s a national embarassment that so many people are poorly informed and apathetic about the process. If you want to discuss this further, perhaps we should start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/50 "2003-12-31T19:16:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*Yes, you can really make a difference. Not in the world maybe, but in your own life, which is why you are here. Change comes from within yourself and flows out to others. Work on it. > > Love \*\* La la. Look at me. I’m loving and caring, and a loving and caring force surrounds me and infects others. I think you meant to post this in the “Daily Affirmations of Crap” section. Seriously, is this a joke? What does this possibly contribute to the debate? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\* > If you want to discuss this further, perhaps we should start a new thread._\* Maybe closer to election time. And, beginning soon, no computer for me till monday. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/51 "2003-12-31T20:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Trunk \* > La la. Look at me. I’m loving and caring, and a loving and caring force surrounds me and infects others. > > I think you meant to post this in the “Daily Affirmations of Crap” section. > > Seriously, is this a joke? What does this possibly contribute to the debate? Probably doesn’t contribute much, since you’re not really looking for debate of your idea as much as validation of a certain idea. You’re right that on a global level one person’s decisions don’t count either way. It’s like taking a piece of sand away from a beach. It would take a lot of erosion to affect that beach. Someone has to care about erosion though. It’s a collective, combined effort. Knowing that if I stop doing something that is good for the collective whole, that it won’t affect it, doesn’t absolve me from my part. I don’t think it is some sort of “moral” compulsive. It’s more a practical survival tool. Herd mentality or something. I can’t see any reason why you(collective) should do your part and I shouldn’t. I even expect you to do your part, so it’s reasonable for me to do mine. The real question isn’t what would motivate a person to do their part when it probably won’t matter. It’s what would motivate a person to not do their part. I’m with “La la”, oops I mean **lekatt**. The power to “infect” is bigger than you think. If I’m right, I have a great fulfilling life. If I’m wrong, even delusional, I have a great fulfilling life too. 🆒 I couldn’t find the “Daily Affirmations of Crap” section? It just kept bringing me back here. Hmm…Must be hard to differentiate between good crap and bad crap sometimes. Love 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Crimson\_Teardrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a5b964/32.png) [@Crimson\_Teardrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crimson_Teardrop)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587/52 "2004-01-01T21:35:30Z")
the smallest of things can make a difference…even if it’s just making someone happy or giving someone a gift…sharing an opinion with someone who is in need of help. Anyone can do it as long as in their hearts they want to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-make-a-difference/221587.md?page=2)