Can you really tell whether a kid is disturbed by looking at his artwork?

Astorian said: “Either way, such bozos are out there, and THEY are the ones who will make the determinations whether a student is a dangerous nut, or just an ill-behaved little boy. So, I’m far less sanguine than Jois.”

Well, you just had to say that, didn’t you and it is worse that you are right, too. One Boza psychologist may be all the individual elementary school has, one who will be as helpful as a Jersey barrier when you’d like to pull off the road. Most of the time, for the serious issues, a committee can and will override a bozo.

I never heard the details of the finger pointing kids who got expelled under that “Zero Tolerance” deal, but I can see both sides of that issue!

Handy, are you cleaning your glasses regularly?

OK… my browser for the last couple of days hasn’t been able to get the whole topic of any one string… so I won’t comment on the subject… but thought this would be a good time to tell one of my mom’s favorite stories.

When I was a pretty little kid-- my mom was in the hospital for surgery. Apparantly (I don’t remembera ny of this) the hospital had some child psychologist come talk to me to see how I was handling the whole thing. So as part of my “therapy” the psychologist had me draw. Well, the psychologist takes the picture to my mom and shows it to her and says how bad it is. I’ve crossed out all the faces, I am feeling really horrible about myself, it means such and such. Anyhow, my mom got really worried, and pulled me aside afterwards and asked me why I’d crossed out all the faces.

Apparantly, I was just emberassed because I couldn’t draw faces… so I drew my people looking away at something in the distance. What the psychologist thought was me scratching out faces, was me drawing hair. :slight_smile:

I do believe that drawing pictures can be helpful… I’ve seen drawings by little 5 year old kids who showed two big people, with the kid in the middle… (the kid was very tiny compared to the two adults) and then scratches between the two adults. It was pretty obviously a kid caught between two parents fighting. (I don’t know if I described it correctly, but it was pretty powerful when I saw it.) BUT, keep in mind, its similar in theory to good old Rorschach. And you have to know the childs frame of mind and talk to him/her about it. This way you know-- is the kid crossing out faces, or drawing hair.

Screeme
(I can’t wait till I can read this whole thread… :slight_smile: )

They told my mother I was disturbed because all my paintings were black.
I tried to pretend that black was the only color left after the bigger kids picked theirs. (I’m a “runt”, not quite a midget).
But actually, I was disturbed, having watched my father and mother argue over “who’s fault” I was, and whether someone else (someone short) had to be my father.
Therapy has done a lot.

Please ignore the bastard Osip in the above post.
Go to the pit and read the thread there.
My parents never did argue over whose fault I was.
carry on.

The kids were suspended by the principal because other kids heard the “offenders” talking about “hurting” someone during the pretend bank robbery.

I absolutely agree that the suspension (and probably the rule) is overkill. How does that have any bearing on the subject? The “counsellors” (if there even were any at that school) did not decide that the kids were hostile, the principal decided to strictly enforce a no tolerance rule.

In the broader scheme of school counsellors, how many are actually trained clinical psychologists? Most that I have met have a few years of psychology toward a degree that lets them be counsellors–not psychologists. Even granting that every occupation has its clowns, I would say that pictures are still one valid tool in an array of tools that help decipher whether a child is or is not disturbed.

As the others have said, art therapy can be used to gauge a child’s development in hand/eye coordination and perception. There are certain stages children tend to go through when they draw.

From infancy to about two or two and a half years old, a child’s drawing are usually scribbling - mostly vertical and horizontal lines back and forth. As the child gets a little older, she begins scribbling in a circular pattern.

From there, children usually begin drawing thing in their immediate environment - family. Early drawings tend to be just the head with limbs attached. Once the torso is introduced, there is indeed a period where the belly button is fantastically important. Ears tend to be drawn before noses, interestingly enough.

The size of the subjects tends to be very canonical - Dad the largest, Mom next in size, brothers and sisters smaller.

At some point, (around four or five) children usually begin drawing the outside world. Almost always, the sky and grass begin as bands of color at the very top and very bottom. Usually within a few months, the child begins to color the entire above-ground area as sky.

Perspective is extremely limited as showing detail of the people involved are much more important. Transparency of objects is common because children haven’t learned how to draw foreground, background, and intervening layers. So, to show a drawing of a person holding a hot dog, the child draws the person first, with their arm sticking out and their fingers extended. Then they draw the hotdog on top of the fingers. When drawing a family gathered around a table or say, picnic blanket, the child will often flatten the table, draw the farther members upright and draw the nearer ones upside down - as if you were looking at them from above instead of from the side.

Children tend to draw flowers as either tulips (straight stem, cup with three or four points at the top) or daisies (straight stem, petals surrounding a center, always seen full on). Trees tend to be a straight brown trunk topped by a green leaf circle. The sun is almost always drawn in the upper lefthand corner. Houses have a door in the middle, a window on either side of the door, and a chimney with smoke coming out of it. Sometimes the windows have curtains.

Most children start to leave these conventions behind by about 11 or 12 years old. Development can usually be gauged within a year’s variation. Problems are indicated only when there is a substantial change in the way the art is produced or when nearly all of the art produced is markedly and consistently different from the norm. Even then, it’s only an indication.

<snipped couple of paragraphs on Art Brut, Naive Art, and Innocent Art. Fascinating, but off topic.>

There are some other things that were mentioned in my classes that I want to verify before presenting them as absolute:

  • children’s drawings are so archetypal that standard representations of house/tree/flowers appear even in non-Western cultures.

  • several artists and art psychologists were given copies of work by Adolph Hitler without being told it was his work. They critiqued his work as being very detached and cold and as treating the human figure as an object instead of a person.

When I was little, we were given an assignment to draw some of the people who worked in our school. My mother saved those pictures, and I look at them now, and can’t stop laughing. Our librarian looks just like a chicken in my picture of her. Our janitor didn’t have a body, and had like 75 fingers on one hand. What the hell is that supposed to mean?

I remember drawing pictures of haunted houses, with blood and monsters, and the whole bit. I also drew pictures of war and bombs, and people getting blown up. Body parts laying around, fighter jets flying overhead, etc., and I didn’t even really know much about war. I just drew it.

I was just having fun. I was NOT sick, or dying, or disturbed. If I drew a picture of my family, and everyone was inside the house, and I was outside, it’s probably because I was thinking about playing in my yard.

I would say that if you are going to use a child’s drawings as a tool to determine their mental stability, health, or state, that you be REALLY careful. If a child thinks they’re in trouble for drawing a certain thing, you just may crush that wonderful imagination that most of them have.