# Can you stop a cop from using excessive force on someone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813 "2017-04-19T21:31:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/61 "2017-04-20T17:05:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or, just _maybe_, we can find out if there are any other legal options open to us, because so far you have given no evidence that filming without interaction actually does anything to alleviate the situation. And what legal options are there? We’ve already determined that getting physically involved is not going to go well, even if you are legally in the right. You will likely end up hurt or killed yourself, and in the case that that doesn’t happen, you will be facing serious charges. You have any suggestions, then? If getting physically involved is a bad idea, serving as a witness (and recorder) won’t work, and walking by is unacceptable, then I think you have ruled out all possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/62 "2017-04-20T17:08:44Z")
**Moderator Action** This thread has had difficulty staying within the factual bounds of GQ pretty much from the start. Since the factual aspects of this have probably been dealt with as well as they are going to be in this thread, let’s go ahead and move this to Great Debates. Moving thread from General Questions to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/63 "2017-04-20T17:13:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And what legal options are there? > > We’ve already determined that getting physically involved is not going to go well, even if you are legally in the right. You will likely end up hurt or killed yourself, and in the case that that doesn’t happen, you will be facing serious charges. > > You have any suggestions, then? > > If getting physically involved is a bad idea, serving as a witness (and recorder) won’t work, and walking by is unacceptable, then I think you have ruled out all possibilities. The thread was supposed to be about the legal options available, not the best options…which will probably never be answered now that the thread has been moved. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/64 "2017-04-20T17:29:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The thread was supposed to be about the legal options available, not the best options…which will probably never be answered now that the thread has been moved. That was answered, I thought, fairly early on. You would _legally_ have the right to intervene, in that a cop is not above the law, and if they were breaking the law by committing assault or murder, you could theoretically legally step in and stop him. It was also pointed out that from a practical standpoint that would not work out well for you. In fact, if you were going to get involved, I would strongly suggest you get someone else to record. As far as legal and practical, being a witness to and recording the encounter actually would be your best bet. You are not getting physically involved, so there is no sort of obstruction charges against you, the cop is not likely to be able to justify you as a threat, and in most cases, recording would be legal. (Question there, is there a difference between recording and broadcasting? If a cop tells you that it is illegal to record him and to stop, can you respond, “I’m not recording, I’m broadcasting on facebook live to 500 people right now.”) I get that you are looking for _other_ options than those two, but I don’t think that they exist. (well, other than ignoring it and passing by) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/65 "2017-04-20T17:37:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That was answered, I thought, fairly early on. No. Uncited opinions on both sides of the aisle have been given, but no court cases or laws have been given as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/66 "2017-04-20T17:41:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I get that you are looking for _other_ options than those two, but I don’t think that they exist. (well, other than ignoring it and passing by) once again, no. I am looking for a _factual_ answer to the OP’s question as to whether it is _legal_ to physically intervene when you see a police officer beating the shit out of someone that is not resisting. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/67 "2017-04-20T17:57:25Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > In most cases, that’s only true if it is you or your immediate family. This isn’t true. Defense of others doesn’t rely on familial relationships. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > No. Uncited opinions on both sides of the aisle have been given, but no court cases or laws have been given as far as I know. It depends on location I’m sure. It would be legal in Indiana: [Indiana Code Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure § 35-41-3-2](http://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-35-criminal-law-and-procedure/in-code-sect-35-41-3-2.html) > [@](#): > > (i) A person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary to: > (1) protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force; > (2) prevent or terminate the public servant’s unlawful entry of or attack on the person’s dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle;  or > (3) prevent or terminate the public servant’s unlawful trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person’s possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person’s immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. > > … > > (k) A person is not justified in using deadly force against a public servant whom the person knows or reasonably should know is a public servant unless: > (1) the person reasonably believes that the public servant is: > (A) acting unlawfully;  or > (B) not engaged in the execution of the public servant’s official duties;  and > **(2) the force is reasonably necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person.** (my bold) This law was signed in 2012 and was motivated in part by [Barnes v Indiana](http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/05121101shd.pdf) where the Indiana Supreme Court ruled that there was no right to reasnably resist unlawful entry by police officers. [Plummer v. State](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plummer_v._State) and [John Bad Elk v. United States](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/177/529/case.html)are also mentioned in these types of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/68 "2017-04-20T18:01:53Z")
Thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/69 "2017-04-20T18:13:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No. Uncited opinions on both sides of the aisle have been given, but no court cases or laws have been given as far as I know. Well, I could cite laws against assault and murder, and show that it is illegal for someone to assault or murder someone. I could show you that there is no exception in there for cops. There are no laws that would cover how the cop reacted to your intervention, so there is nothign at all to cite there. I don’t know of any court cases that have occurred that deal with someone physically intervening in a police brutality situation, and a bit of googling doesn’t turn up anything, so likely, nothing to cite there. I can cite many instances of police at least getting into trouble with the public, even if they did not get legally charged, because of video evidence against them. So, the reason for no cites is because they likely don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/70 "2017-04-20T18:14:59Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > This isn’t true. Defense of others doesn’t rely on familial relationships. > It depends on location I’m sure. It would be legal in Indiana: > [Indiana Code Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure § 35-41-3-2](http://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-35-criminal-law-and-procedure/in-code-sect-35-41-3-2.html) > > (my bold) > This law was signed in 2012 and was motivated in part by [Barnes v Indiana](http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/05121101shd.pdf) where the Indiana Supreme Court ruled that there was no right to reasnably resist unlawful entry by police officers. [Plummer v. State](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plummer_v._State) and [John Bad Elk v. United States](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/177/529/case.html)are also mentioned in these types of discussion. It would be legal, sure, but how well would it hold up o your word vs the cops? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/71 "2017-04-20T18:20:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, I could cite laws against assault and murder, and show that it is illegal for someone to assault or murder someone. I could show you that there is no exception in there for cops. > > There are no laws that would cover how the cop reacted to your intervention, so there is nothign at all to cite there. > > I don’t know of any court cases that have occurred that deal with someone physically intervening in a police brutality situation, and a bit of googling doesn’t turn up anything, so likely, nothing to cite there. > > I can cite many instances of police at least getting into trouble with the public, even if they did not get legally charged, because of video evidence against them. > > So, the reason for no cites is because they likely don’t exist. Well, we’ve got one cite so far that seems to point out that a law was passed in Indiana as recently as 2012 to counteract a Indiana Supreme Court ruling that said that intervening _wasn’t_ allowed, which points out that: 1. One cannot assume that _of course_ it is legal, and 2. One cannot assume that it is now legal everywhere without further cites. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/72 "2017-04-20T18:21:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I still would like to see a cite where a citizen did so and was exonerated by the court. Until then, your “Of course it is” is still just an opinion. Not exactly a legal precedent but there is the Battle of Athens (TN not Greece): > **[Battle of Athens (1946)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946))** > > Rebellion victory > The Battle of Athens (sometimes called the McMinn County War) was a rebellion led by citizens in Athens and Etowah, Tennessee, United States, against the local government in August 1946. The citizens, including some World War II veterans, accused the local officials of predatory policing, police brutality, political corruption, and voter intimidation. One of those historical incidents that would be unbelievable as a Hollywood plot device. WW2 veterans fought running battles against a corrupt local police (with machine guns and dynamite.) They won. And the only prosecution was against one of the deputies for the shooting that triggered the incident. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/73 "2017-04-20T19:06:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or, just _maybe_, we can find out if there are any other legal options open to us, because so far you have given no evidence that filming without interaction actually does anything to alleviate the situation. Maybe not alleviate, but Rodney King got some dollars and two of his torturers were punished thanks to video. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/74 "2017-04-20T19:15:36Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Maybe not alleviate, but Rodney King got some dollars and two of his torturers were punished thanks to video. Which would have done him a fat lot of good if they had taken it just a bit farther. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/75 "2017-04-20T19:20:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which would have done him a fat lot of good if they had taken it just a bit farther. I’m sure his family would have appreciated Mr Holliday’s efforts getting the video and submitting it to the press. Do you think Mr Holliday would have been able to take on four of LA’s finest? ETA: . . . And would you expect him to? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/76 "2017-04-20T19:22:06Z")
In December of 2013, police conducted a no-knock raid against a person suspected of a marijuana grow operation who they thought was in possession of weapons. The resident thought they were being attacked and shot and killed an officer entering. [Henry Magee was arrested, but a grand jury in TX returned a no bill for indictment.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2014/02/10/some-justice-in-texas-the-raid-on-henry-magee/) The cite also lists other similar incidents with varying results. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/77 "2017-04-20T19:32:41Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I’m sure his family would have appreciated Mr Holliday’s efforts getting the video and submitting it to the press. Do you think Mr Holliday would have been able to take on four of LA’s finest? > > ETA: . . . And would you expect him to? Just pointing out this this filming was just as effective in stopping the police from beating someone as all the other examples given so far-which is not at all. You can say that filming the event is better than just walking away all you want, but it isn’t if the goal is stop the beating. For that particular purpose, _which is what this thread is about_, it is no more effective than walking away. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/78 "2017-04-20T19:54:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Just pointing out this this filming was just as effective in stopping the police from beating someone as all the other examples given so far-which is not at all. You can say that filming the event is better than just walking away all you want, but it isn’t if the goal is stop the beating. For that particular purpose, _which is what this thread is about_, it is no more effective than walking away. I don’t know how you’d prove it, but if the threat of prison deters crime at all, then one could argue that seeing videos lead to cop imprisonment might be a deterrence to future episodes of police impropriety. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/79 "2017-04-20T19:55:18Z")
Although it’s significantly safer than physically intervening, even filming might entail some negative consequences for the person filming the police. They may confiscate your camera as evidence, they may arrest you for interfering if you get too close (which may come with it’s own beating), etc. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813/80 "2017-04-20T20:05:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Although it’s significantly safer than physically intervening, even filming might entail some negative consequences for the person filming the police. They may confiscate your camera as evidence, they may arrest you for interfering if you get too close (which may come with it’s own beating), etc. That’s why you don’t record, you livestream. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-stop-a-cop-from-using-excessive-force-on-someone/784813.md?page=5)