# Can You Think of a Movie Where the Hero and the Villain Don't Actually Meet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 3, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309 "2002-12-03T23:44:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/41 "2002-12-04T19:07:05Z")
Did Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde “meet”? I’m sure there are other movies where the bad guy and good guy are the same… guy, but never interact. Or see eachother. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/42 "2002-12-04T19:14:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MyFootsZZZ \* > \*\*I’m sure there are other movies where the bad guy and good guy are the same… guy, but never interact. Or see eachother. \*\* Yeah, I almost mentioned Fight Club beacuse although they appear to meet, it’s really impossible by the strict definition of meet, isn’t it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/43 "2002-12-04T20:08:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elf6c \* > \*\* Oh yes they have. They just don’t know it. AOTC makes it clear the power of the Dark Side to obscure. Its mostly seems to obscure Lucas from logic, but I digress > > 🙂 \*\* As my dorky username will attest, I know. 🙂 But technically, the hero and villain don’t meet face-to-face until ROTJ. > [@](#): > > Actually the detective does kill the Jackal (at least in the book) after the Jackal shoots the patrolman who is first through the door. Same way in the original 1973 movie. The Policeman and the Detective burst in, the Jackal fires once and kills the Policeman, then while he’s trying to reload his funky rifle, the Detective runs over to the Policeman’s machine gun and kills him. If only the Jackal had a way to fire twice w/o reloading… ☹ Poor Jackal… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/44 "2002-12-04T20:59:17Z")
In _Lord of the Rings_, I would argue that Frodo seeing the Eye in the Mirror and atop Amon Hen _is_ a confrontation between Frodo and Saruman. But even there, I don’t think that’s quite the right comparison. It seems that Sam confronts The Enemy (whatever it is) when he has the vision of the great garden, and rejects it. By this interpretation, most of the Good Guys end up confronting The Enemy, with varying results. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/45 "2002-12-04T21:22:59Z")
> [@](#): > > In Lord of the Rings, I would argue that Frodo seeing the Eye in the Mirror and atop Amon Hen is a confrontation between Frodo and **Saruman**. Sauron. But I think you’re right. I may have missed the “great garden” vision on my last reading, but remember it from previous readings. Got a page number on that by chance? Is it right when he steps out from the tower into Mordor-proper? ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/46 "2002-12-04T21:35:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually the detective does kill the Jackal (at least in the book) after the Jackal shoots the patrolman who is first through the door. The movie goes the same way. I nominate Coppola’s _The Conversation_ and _Charade_ w/Cary Grant also works. ---
**Author:** ![Leap\_of\_Faith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/278dde/32.png) [@Leap\_of\_Faith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leap_of_Faith)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/47 "2002-12-04T21:43:32Z")
How about the film Angel Heart, with Mickey Roarke (and Robert DeNiro, maybe)? ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/48 "2002-12-04T21:51:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ArchiveGuy \* > \*\*I nominate Coppola’s _The Conversation_ and _Charade_ w/Cary Grant also works. \*\* _Charade_? Earlier in the movie, Hepburn meets Carson Dyle in his “office” face-to-face. She may not have known he was the villain then, but then in the final scene, Carson Dyle pulls a gun on Audrey Hepburn while Cary Grant points his gun at Dyle. They certainly met in that scene. _The Conversation_, however, is the best example I’ve seen so far. Harry Caul doesn’t even speak to them - he just listens in that last scene near the end when they call him. ---
**Author:** ![Bomzaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e480ec/32.png) [@Bomzaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bomzaway)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/49 "2002-12-04T21:57:14Z")
**We Were Soldiers** Mel Gibson’s character is playing a game of strategy versus a Vietnamese Colonel(?). The two never meet, but clearly, the battle is one of wits between the two men. ---
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/50 "2002-12-05T00:10:05Z")
In any movie, if you define the villain as being some character the hero never meets, then yes, there are a lot of movies where the hero never meets the villain. Or vice versa, like in _Goldfinger_. In a sense, M is the hero because he’s James Bond’s boss. And M never meets Goldfinger! ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/51 "2002-12-05T00:26:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > **In _Lord of the Rings_, I would argue that Frodo seeing the Eye in the Mirror and atop Amon Hen _is_ a confrontation…** OK, fair enough. I guess with **Munch** ’s interpretation of the eye as a periscope, we’ve either got a sub movie type confrontation or “through a gunsight”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/52 "2002-12-05T00:53:46Z")
Rumor has it that Aragorn and Sauron will meet and fight, perhaps at the Morannon. No, I don’t trust the scource, but the book ending may not work in the movie: Our heroes are surrounded, then “poof” everything crumbles? This article seems to indicate Sauron will be more than an eye in ROTK: [http://www.empireonline.co.uk/news/news.asp?4365](http://www.empireonline.co.uk/news/news.asp?4365) Bookwise, many consider Gollum as Frodo’s confrontation with evil. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/53 "2002-12-05T00:57:37Z")
> [@](#): > > _Dooku says:_ Charade? Earlier in the movie, Hepburn meets Carson Dyle in his “office” face-to-face. She may not have known he was the villain then, but then in the final scene, Carson Dyle pulls a gun on Audrey Hepburn while Cary Grant points his gun at Dyle. They certainly met in that scene. First of all, I was thinking of Grant as the hero, not Hepburn (though we don’t know each character’s status until the finale). When they have the showdown towards the end, Cary & Walter can barely even see each other (both are hiding behind pillars). Cary gets one shot off but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say they barely even see each other (they hardly talk to each other either; each talks to and through Audrey but not much to each other directly). This is also true in the subsequent chase and final showdown. Essentially, Cary never meets face-to-face with Walter in the entire movie. He’s even able to kill him without seeing him! Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/54 "2002-12-05T01:12:56Z")
OK, I see now **ArchiveGuy**. That works for me too, now that I consider Grant the hero. (I had forgotten about the scene where they make you think Hepburn was the villain. James Coburn was great in that scene). ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2002, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/55 "2002-12-05T04:40:12Z")
Well, the ending you described of LotR is almost exactly what happened in _The Mummy_. ---
**Author:** ![IThinkNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ce73a5/32.png) [@IThinkNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IThinkNot)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/56 "2002-12-14T23:56:47Z")
I was going to suggest “Spy Game”! Oh, well. And I do have a question for Ethilrist-----“The Matrix”? How do you figure? Neo and Trinity and the whole crew meet the Agents all the time. And even if you’re referring to the entire computer system in general (a.k.a. The Matrix) then it’s IMPOSSIBLE for the villian and the hero to meet ANYWAY, because the villian is not a person at ALL! Whew… sorry about that. It’s just that I am a huge fan of “The Matrix” and I can’t help but get into a discussion about it. But do you see what I mean? ---
**Author:** ![SuperNova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SuperNova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperNova)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309/57 "2002-12-16T04:57:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OcularGold \* > \*\*5th element? > > spoiler: > > bruce willis never meets the main bad guy (cant remember his name), but milla jovavich fights him. he ends up getting blown up later on. 🆒 \*\* First one I thought of. Surprised no one else mentioned it. The bad guys name was Zorg. Him and Bruce Willis always miss each other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-think-of-a-movie-where-the-hero-and-the-villain-dont-actually-meet/140309.md?page=2)