# Can you win at anything if you practise hard enough? (BBC News story) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 29, 2015, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786 "2015-04-29T07:56:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/41 "2015-04-30T03:07:35Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > The running seems plausible to this layman of the athletic sciences; one’s genes can determine the limits of their musculature and endurance. But what talents are implicated in golf except for those that can be honed by practice? Form, consistency, muscle memory, mentality, recognition of the lay of the course, _et cetera_ – what exactly would prevent most people from acquiring these skills if they put in the requisite tens of thousands of hours of directed practice? That is exactly what millions of frustrated golfers would like to know. It’s just an empirical fact that some guys, including world class athletes in other sports, play and practice diligently for years under good teachers, and never break 80, while gifted kids like Tiger Woods, playing when they can after school, and usually taught by their dads who may or may not know much about teaching golf, can shoot in the 60’s before they hit puberty. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/42 "2015-04-30T03:12:27Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think part of the underlying attitude for the “You can achieve anything if you try hard enough” notion is that people want to think that the only thing that holds people back is their inner motivation. This is like telling poor people to lift themselves up by their bootstraps. Sure, many can improve themselves greatly through harder work, but for many others, they can’t. Sometimes we run into the hard limits of circumstances. Ah yes, motivation. You’ll often hear that Joe Champ spends more time practicing than anyone else, and it may even be true. But what they’re forgetting is that it’s a hell of a lot easier to be motivated to practice when you are really good at something. If you’re Arnold Schwarzenegger, and you can add 5 pounds to the bar every workout, then of course you can’t wait to go to the gym. If you’re Joe Average, and you see little or no improvement for months on end, you start wondering whether it’s worth it. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/43 "2015-04-30T03:23:56Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > That is exactly what millions of frustrated golfers would like to know. > > It’s just an empirical fact that some guys, including world class athletes in other sports, play and practice diligently for years under good teachers, and never break 80, while gifted kids like Tiger Woods, playing when they can after school, and usually taught by their dads who may or may not know much about teaching golf, can shoot in the 60’s before they hit puberty. I always think of more stuff after it’s too late to edit. But driving a golf ball is kind of like pitching a baseball — it doesn’t take the kind of strength you associate with powerlifting, but you have to apply an awful lot of force with extreme accuracy. Now, everybody can throw a ball (except girls). But would you say that with enough practice, anybody can throw a ball 95mph into a very small target, like a major league pitcher? Of course not. And very few people can drive a golf ball 300+yards into the fairway. Even Tiger, who’s no worse than the second best golfer ever, hasn’t been able to consistently hit his driver straight for years, including some years when he was indisputably the best golfer in the world. Somebody said MJ was too old to be a good golfer, but talent is much more important than age in golf. Tom Watson is 65, and shot under par at the first round of the Masters this month, and came within a shot of winning the British Open a few years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/44 "2015-04-30T04:48:18Z")
You only need to look at who wins marathons and it tends to be these guys from a certain section of Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/45 "2015-04-30T05:27:54Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Ah yes, motivation. You’ll often hear that Joe Champ spends more time practicing than anyone else, and it may even be true. But what they’re forgetting is that it’s a hell of a lot easier to be motivated to practice when you are really good at something. Also, in my experience, it’s easier to be motivated to practice when you’re \*obsessed \*with something. I started playing the guitar a few years ago (rather late in life), starting from scratch, and got surprisingly good within the first year. But only because I was freaking obsessing about it. Similarly, I took up exercise and running for a while, and went from not being able to run around the block to half marathon distance in a shockingly short amount of time. But only, again, because I seemed to be on some mad quest. You don’t get bored when you’re obsessed. My problem is that my obsessions don’t stick. The crazy lasts for a while, and then goes away. Also, obviously, I can’t choose what I obsess over or will myself to stay obsessed. It’s just a theory, but I think that what makes some people successful, maybe, in addition to talent and work, is staying permanently in that state of obsession. How else are you going to stay motivated to, say, run for hours and hours every day, for years and years and years? It can’t be just self-discipline. Obsession as a key to success. I dunno, just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/46 "2015-04-30T14:18:58Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Somebody said MJ was too old to be a good golfer, but talent is much more important than age in golf. Tom Watson is 65, and shot under par at the first round of the Masters this month, and came within a shot of winning the British Open a few years ago. The point isn’t that Michael Jordan was too old to golf. It’s that he was too old to _learn_ to golf at an elite level. Tom Watson golfs brilliantly at age 65, but he learned to golf as a child. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/47 "2015-04-30T14:54:55Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Also, in my experience, it’s easier to be motivated to practice when you’re \*obsessed \*with something. I started playing the guitar a few years ago (rather late in life), starting from scratch, and got surprisingly good within the first year. But only because I was freaking obsessing about it. Similarly, I took up exercise and running for a while, and went from not being able to run around the block to half marathon distance in a shockingly short amount of time. But only, again, because I seemed to be on some mad quest. > > You don’t get bored when you’re obsessed. > > My problem is that my obsessions don’t stick. The crazy lasts for a while, and then goes away. Also, obviously, I can’t choose what I obsess over or will myself to stay obsessed. > > It’s just a theory, but I think that what makes some people successful, maybe, in addition to talent and work, is staying permanently in that state of obsession. How else are you going to stay motivated to, say, run for hours and hours every day, for years and years and years? It can’t be just self-discipline. > > Obsession as a key to success. I dunno, just a thought. ``` This is a great topic in it self. What keeps people at a high degree of motivation. I would expect that as long as the rewards keep comming we stay motivated. I will suaully stay obsessed with something for less than a decade with many short obsessions inbetween. My last obsession has lasted over 20 years and is just now starting to wind down. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/48 "2015-04-30T15:30:47Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > My last obsession has lasted over 20 years and is just now starting to wind down. Wow! What is it? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/49 "2015-04-30T15:52:39Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Wow! What is it? ``` I make primitive bows and arrows. Knapping arrowheads and stone knives seems to be equally addicting. ``` ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/50 "2015-04-30T18:40:43Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > … > My problem is that my obsessions don’t stick. The crazy lasts for a while, and then goes away. Also, obviously, I can’t choose what I obsess over or will myself to stay obsessed. > … I’m similar, I can get crazy good at things pretty rapidly due to spending all my time in single-minded obsession. It never lasts long for me though, as soon as the shiny starts wearing off and I enter the plateau of diminishing returns, I can’t muster up any enthusiasm more than minimal maintenance effort. If I had a nickle for every shelved hobby… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/51 "2015-04-30T19:38:18Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > You only need to look at who wins marathons and it tends to be these guys from a certain section of Africa. [Big bang of Body types Ted Talks around 7:40](https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epstein_are_athletes_really_getting_faster_better_stronger?language=en) ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/52 "2015-05-01T00:42:43Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > The point isn’t that Michael Jordan was too old to golf. It’s that he was too old to _learn_ to golf at an elite level. I’d be interested in seeing any evidence you have that you have to be young to learn golf properly. There are so many mental aspects to golf that it seems that maturity would be an advantage, up to a point. It’s true that the vast majority of elite golfers started quite young, but the same is true of any sport, and it’s pretty easily explained by how unlikely it is for someone who never played X before adulthood to suddenly decide to devote the time necessary to become really good at it. And there are plenty of golfers who didn’t start until their teens, which is long after the brain changes that make, say, learning languages easier as a child. And there are counterexamples like YE Yang, who reportedly never played until he was 19, and was self-taught. He later beat Tiger head to head to win the 2009 PGA Championship. You might even include Ben Hogan, who was evidently practicing the WRONG things for hour after hour from age 11 until nearly age 30, when he suddenly became great. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/53 "2015-05-01T01:10:07Z")
And the recently deceased Calvin Peete, who sold fruits and vegetables to migrant farm workers out of his car trunk as a young man before taking up golf at 24. No college scholarship, didn’t even finish HS. Completely self-taught, he was breaking 80 after 6 months and shooting in the 60’s after one year. He couldn’t even fully extend one arm due to a broken elbow as a child. He won 12 times on the PGA Tour. Talk about someone who was born with it. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786/54 "2015-05-01T02:08:28Z")
Don’t forget Happy Gilmore. Especially once he developed his short game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-win-at-anything-if-you-practise-hard-enough-bbc-news-story/718786.md?page=2)