# Canabis leaf? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 15, 2001, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084 "2001-01-15T04:21:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![stevehaddock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@stevehaddock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevehaddock)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/1 "2001-01-15T04:21:26Z")
I’m still hoping this one is a joke on Cecil’s part 🙂 That leaf on the Canadian flag is, of course, a Maple Leaf, not a Canabis leaf. The Maple Leaf has been a part of Canada’s heraldry from the 18th century. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/2 "2001-01-15T05:54:54Z")
Cecil’s column: [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010112.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010112.html) Wouldn’t that be a joke on Lauren’s part, rather than Cecil’s? Assuming, of course, that Lauren wasn’t a joke on Cecil’s part. Or is that what you meant? ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/3 "2001-01-15T07:05:34Z")
I assumed that was C.A.'s code for Uniball. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=50808](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=50808) ---
**Author:** ![Richard.Stridde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9dc877/32.png) [@Richard.Stridde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard.Stridde)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/4 "2001-01-15T07:28:55Z")
Hello. It’s nice to see that someone mentions that the canadian flag has a maple leaf on it, but with the question corrected it is still unanswered why it’s on the flag. Would someone tell me? regards Richard ---
**Author:** ![Neurodoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/848f3c/32.png) [@Neurodoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurodoc)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/5 "2001-01-15T09:50:09Z")
It seems that the maple leaf is topologically equivalent to the cannabis leaf. If so, can maple syrup be considered equivalent to hash oil, or topologically transformed into it? ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/6 "2001-01-15T14:57:47Z")
Hmph. It’s also topologically equivalent to a star, or a swastika. Just like the donut is topologically equivalent to the coffee cup. Doesn’t make the ceramic any tastier though… ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/7 "2001-01-15T18:49:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Richard.Stridde \* > It’s nice to see that someone mentions that the canadian flag has a maple leaf on it, but with the question corrected it is still unanswered why it’s on the flag. Would someone tell me? [The Birth of the Canadian Flag](http://www.pch.gc.ca/symb/flag_e.htm#f3) Short answer: the design was chosen by committee in 1964. The maple leaf was probably suggested as a symbol because there are many maple trees in Canada. Though there were other possibilities: > [@](#): > > Thousands of Canadians responded with flag designs of their own, using everything from beavers munching on birch trees to the northern lights shining over the Arctic Ocean to represent the country. ---
**Author:** ![stevehaddock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@stevehaddock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevehaddock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/8 "2001-01-16T00:17:44Z")
I believe the leaf was chosen because it is one of Canada’s few heraldic symbols that is uniquely Canadian. A quick look at Canada’s coat of arms, which dates back over 100 years, shows Lions (British), a Unicorn (Scottish), Fleur de Lis (French) and a Union Jack (United Kingdom). Most of these also appeared on the “Red Ensign”, Canada’s Flag until 1965. Of all the symbols used consistently in Canadian heraldry (the Maple Leaf’s use dates back to at least the war of 1812), the Leaf is only beaten by the beaver as the oldest and most unique. The beaver was considered, but it is rather a clumsy design for a modern nation. Besides, the Leaf has another feature - it’s 11 points correspond to 10 provinces and one extra for the territory. ---
**Author:** ![Dummy-up](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@Dummy-up](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dummy-up)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/9 "2001-01-16T02:25:23Z")
I can shed some light on this, Lauren is my SO. I made a large, red, plywood maple leaf to give to Lauren’s mom for Christmas. She is going to put it on the gable end of her lake cabin as a display of her proud heritage. I am hoping that we can declare the cabin an embassy or something and assert a 3 mile territorial limit on the lake. We could thus ban Jet Skis and restore some peace and quiet, but that’s another story. My brother knew I was making the maple leaf and happened upon the SDMB thread about the Canadian flag and cannabis leaf. He was amused and emailed Lauren a link to it. Lauren opened the link and got something other than the thread. She is not familiar with message boards(claiming that she actually has work to do while at the office!). She thought that she emailed my brother back and as a joke said something like: “Martin, the link didn’t work. If this is true, my mom will really be the talk of Lake Washington” I see two possibilities: Lauren actually was linked to “Contact us at Straight Dope” and sent the message to Cecil and Company, they did a little creative editing and came up with a question ready-made for a (slightly) humorous answer. or My brother is having a little fun with Lauren and submitted the question in her name. Now all brothers deserve a dope-slap now and then(per Click and Clack; open hand, back of the head, slight upward motion), but perhaps my brother deserves a Straight Dope Slap. Fess up Cecil, did your creativity extend to the question as well as the answer this time? ---
**Author:** ![Dummy-up](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@Dummy-up](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dummy-up)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/10 "2001-01-16T02:26:28Z")
Sorry about the double post - first try and I screwed it up! (double post was deleted by moderator) [Edited by Arnold Winkelried on 01-16-2001 at 12:51 AM] ---
**Author:** ![Richard.Stridde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9dc877/32.png) [@Richard.Stridde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard.Stridde)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/11 "2001-01-16T06:03:39Z")
Thanks for the information. w.k.r. Richard ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df788c/32.png) [@El\_Cid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/12 "2001-01-18T16:39:52Z")
There is a popular “underground” version of the Canadian flag, often displayed at rock concerts and fringe festivals of various desciptions, in which the maple leaf in the design is replaced with a cannabis leaf. So the person who asked this question originally may in fact have seen a trick version of the “Canadian flag” with a cannabis leaf on it. Further, the first two words of the Canadian anthem are “Oh, Canada!” It is common for the bogus version of the flag to be accompanied by the words, “Oh, Cannabis!” On a more serious note, a number of people in Canada have recently received court-ordered permission to grow and use marijuana for various medical conditions. The federal government, in response to an increasing number of individuals who have such permission, has just contracted with a private entrepreneur to grow medical marijuana in an abandoned mine. News reports have not indicated which version of the Canadian flag flies over this federal installation. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/13 "2001-01-23T02:41:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I am hoping that we can declare the cabin an embassy or something and assert a 3 mile territorial limit on the lake. We could thus ban Jet Skis and restore some peace and quiet, but that’s another story. Not if Stockwell Day is around… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/14 "2001-01-23T03:31:26Z")
> [@](#): > > A quick look at Canada’s coat of arms, which dates back over 100 years, shows Lions (British), a Unicorn (Scottish), Fleur de Lis (French) and a Union Jack (United Kingdom). Most of these also appeared on the “Red Ensign”, Canada’s Flag until 1965. Actually, the [current arms of Canada](http://www.pch.gc.ca/ceremonial-symb/english/emb_arms_royal.html) were granted by royal warrant and proclamation on November 21, 1921. Prior to that time, there were a couple of variants used. For example, the original Great Seal of Canada featured Victoria enthroned, while another unofficial arms was composed of bits and pieces of the different provincial arms. The shield that was ultimately adopted is modelled very closely on the [English Royal Arms,](http://www.royal.gov.uk/faq/arms.htm) with the substitution of a quarter with fleur-de-lis for one of the quarters showing the three English lions, and the addition of a third Division on the bottom of the shield with three maple leaves on one stem. The use of the maple leaf as a Canadian symbol is much older than 1921. On May 26, 1868, Queen Victoria had granted royal warrants for arms to the provinces of [Quebec](http://www.pch.gc.ca/ceremonial-symb/english/prv_qc.html) and [Ontario,](http://www.pch.gc.ca/ceremonial-symb/english/prv_on.html) both of which incorporated the maple leaf - Ontario’s with three gold maple leaves, and Quebecs with three green maple leaves. Since the maple tree is very common in both those provinces, and the maple syrup trade is a well-known feature of both, I guess it was just seen as a good symbol for both of them. Interestingly, the original warrant for the Canadian arms did not specify the colour of the three maple leaves. In older federal buildings in Ottawa, you sometimes see a version of the arms with green leaves, not red. (For example, in the main court room of the Supreme Court of Canada, which was completed after WWII.). The colour of the leaves was eventually fixed as red, sometime in the 50s, I believe. Also before the adoption of the current Canadian arms, the maple leaf was used by the Canadian army as the cap badge for all Canadians serving overseas in the Great War. The maple leaf is also used on the tombstones of all the Canadians buried in the Commonwealth war graves in France. Prime Minister Pearson mentioned this usage in his debates with the Royal Canadian Legion over the adoption of the new flag, to rebut their arguments that replacing the old red ensign with the new flag insulted those who had fought overseas - if they wore the maple leaf as their badge, and the graves of the fallen are marked by the maple leaf, how could adopting the maple leaf on the flag be an insult? > [@](#): > > Besides, the Leaf has another feature - it’s 11 points correspond to 10 provinces and one extra for the territory. I’ve heard this suggestion before, but I’ve never seen anything to back it up. In any event, we now have 10 prvinces and 3 territories, so even if it had such a symbolism, it’s off-kilter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/15 "2001-01-23T14:09:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Interestingly, the original warrant for the Canadian arms did not specify the colour of the three maple leaves. Are you _sure_ of that? It would be a gross lapse in heraldry. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/16 "2001-01-24T02:00:00Z")
Sorry John, I should have been more precise: the description is ambiguous. Here’s the description of the shield from the Royal warrant as originally passed, from the link I provided earlier: > [@](#): > > the Arms or Ensigns Armorial of the Dominion of Canada shall be Tierced in fesse the first and second divisions containing the quarterly coat following, namely, 1st Gules three lions passant guardant in pale or, 2nd, Or a lion rampant within a double tressure flory-counter-flory gules, 3rd, Azure a harp or stringed argent, 4th, Azure, three fleurs-de-lis or, and the third division Argent three maple leaves conjoined on one stem **proper.** As I understand it, “proper” means the colours of the object in its natural state. The problem here is that there are three different colours for maple leaves in their natural state: green, yellow and red. All maple leaves are green, of course, during the spring and summer. In the autumn, some variants of maple trees turn yellow, and some (notably the sugar maple) turn red. Quebec’s shield has green leaves, Ontario’s has yellow, and the federal shield has red - but aren’t they all “proper”? (Unfortunately, the pages for Ontario and Quebec that I’ve linked to just give illustrations of the provincial arms, they don’t quote the actual warrant, so I don’t know how they’re described: “Proper,” “Vert,” or “Or.”) One of the MPs who was heavily involved in the creation of the Maple Leaf flag, John Ross Matheson, later wrote a book on the development of the flag (_Canada’s Flag: A Search for a Country_). He included a lengthy chapter on the grant of arms, and attributes the ambiguity to a disagreement between the then Prime Minister, Robert Borden, and the College of Heralds in London. PM Borden wanted green leaves, and the draft of the warrant that Canada sent over had “vert.” However, the warrant as issued used “proper.” Matheson’s theory is that the College of Heralds, recognizing a long-standing usage of red and white as Canada’s colours (and noting that Ontario and Quebec used yellow and green), decided to use the ambiguous “proper” to keep the door open for red leaves. Matheson notes that during WWII, the various badges and symbols for the Canadian armed forces used a red maple leaf (or leaves) on a white background (e.g. - the RCAF roundel), and by the 50s, the shield was regularly being used with red leaves. Although the warrant has never been formally amended, the use of red maple leaves for the federal government is now firmly entrenched. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/17 "2001-01-24T09:07:07Z")
So, I wake up in the middle of the night with that vague sense of unease you get when you’ve left something important unfinished, but can’t remember what it is. Mentally run through the usual things (personal matters, finanacial stuff, professional obligations). Nothing comes mind. Then it hits me: “You idiot! When you discussed the different ways to interpret “proper” as a description of maple leaves, you forgot to mention that although a yellow maple leaf could be termed “proper,” it’s ruled out in this case because the colour of the division is “argent,” and a yellow maple leaf on an argent field would be contrary to one of the basic principles of Heraldry! You’d better correct that, or John will think you’re a real ignoramus.!” Thus, the ambiguity in the use of the word proper in this case, when combined with the rest of the blazon, is ambiguous, but it leaves open two choices, red or green, not three; yellow is ruled out, in this particular case. Whew. I feel better now. I’ll be able to get back to sleep. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/18 "2001-01-24T18:29:56Z")
“Three maple leaves… proper,” huh? Yup. That would do it. For the uninformed, the reason that yellow would be impossible is that yellow = gold, and in heraldry it is a requirement that when the “field” (background) is a “metal” (“argent” – silver-- or “or” – gold), the “charge” (the thing that isn’t the background) must be a “color” (not a metal), and vice-versa. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canabis-leaf/50084/19 "2001-01-25T14:21:15Z")
How could you guys have discussed this so long without checking [Flags of the World](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/)? They have all the answers. Red was decided to be “proper” in 1957 by the secretary of state. On December 8th, 1957, it was officially announced to change all flags. Also, “at ‘the Queen’s pleasure’”, the Irish harp was changed from the version with a womans body to the traditional Celtic one. These guys have every detail covered, from the differences between the crown used from 1901-1953 and the one used before and since then to whether it is botannically accurate to have three maple leafs on a stem. Canadian Flag: [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca.html](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca.html) History of the current flag: [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1965.html](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1965.html) 1957-1965 (Red maple leafs): [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1957.html](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1957.html) 1921-1957 (Green maple leafs): [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1921.html](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1921.html) 1907-1921 (old arms): [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1907.html](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1907.html) 1892-1907 (four province arms and unofficial variations): [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1892.html](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1892.html) 1873-1892 (unofficial flags with seven province arms): [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1873.html](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1873.html) 1870-1873 (Unofficial flags with five province arms): [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1870.html](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1870.html) 1867-1870 (unofficial, and official blue ensign): [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1868.html](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-1868.html) Coat of arms: [http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-arms.html](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-arms.html)