# Canada gives up on their military. I wonder who they're depending on now? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 25, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134 "2004-02-25T17:14:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![msklystron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@msklystron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msklystron)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/141 "2004-02-27T03:23:16Z")
> [@CheekyMonkey613](#): > > Are you for real, guy? Up yers you small hairy ape man. I’m a girl. ---
**Author:** ![CheekyMonkey613](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e480ec/32.png) [@CheekyMonkey613](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheekyMonkey613)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/142 "2004-02-27T03:24:34Z")
Well “up yers” too. So am I. ---
**Author:** ![CheekyMonkey613](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e480ec/32.png) [@CheekyMonkey613](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheekyMonkey613)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/143 "2004-02-27T03:28:29Z")
> [@](#): > > msklystron Quote:Up yers you small hairy ape man. I’m a girl. For fucks sakes. Have I gotten so low as to debate with the likes of THIS? Where’s Airman? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/144 "2004-02-27T03:43:31Z")
I’m right here. And I’m wondering how this turned so personal. Geez. I know I’ve been harsh, but I never resorted to attacking someone else like this. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/145 "2004-02-27T03:44:16Z")
Canada’s got girls? Who knew? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/146 "2004-02-27T03:48:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Canada’s got girls? Who knew? Hmmm. Maybe CSIS is more competent than I realized. ---
**Author:** ![CheekyMonkey613](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e480ec/32.png) [@CheekyMonkey613](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheekyMonkey613)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/147 "2004-02-27T03:52:49Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > I’m right here. And I’m wondering how this turned so personal. Geez. I know I’ve been harsh, but I never resorted to attacking someone else like this. Oy! Thank G-d you’re here! I thought the whole debate went to shit! It’s not personal, Airman; I still think you’re great. It’s just we get funny about Canada. I think there’s been some bad blood between us in the past little while. We’ll fix it up. Just don’t give us noogies anymore. ---
**Author:** ![msklystron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@msklystron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msklystron)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/148 "2004-02-27T04:06:33Z")
> [@CheekyMonkey613](#): > > Oy! Thank G-d you’re here! I thought the whole debate went to shit! It’s not personal, Airman; I still think you’re great. It’s just we get funny about Canada. I think there’s been some bad blood between us in the past little while. We’ll fix it up. Just don’t give us noogies anymore. Gufaw! Okay girl, up yers, as in bottoms up. What’s your favourte brew? (Hoping you don’t say Brador.) ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/149 "2004-02-27T04:08:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Canada’s got girls? Who knew? Yo! Married one just four weeks ago as of tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![msklystron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@msklystron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msklystron)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/150 "2004-02-27T04:12:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Canada’s got girls? Who knew? We wear a lot of over-clothes. It’s hard to tell, even for us… ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/151 "2004-02-27T04:13:12Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > This Canadian quite frankly wants an increase in Canada’s military funding too, precisely so we _don’t_ have to depend on the U.S. for our national security. > > Fer cryin’ out loud, our armed forces probably saved hundreds of lives during the ice storm in Quebec and Ontario a few years ago, but we pay them like shit. (The quote I heard in 1996, courtesy of Rick Mercer, was $20000 Canadian per year before taxes.) . Baloney. Soldiers are paid in accordance with established federal government guidelines; they’re paid salaries equivalent to what federal civil servants of the same level of experience and rank are paid, which is very decent money, and you can retire with full pension in just 20 years. They are, in fact, arguably the best-paid soldiers in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/152 "2004-02-27T04:13:27Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > As many have noted in this thread, there is no country on the planet with both the inclination to invade Canada and the ability to project force across vast oceans. I think the point of this thread is that Canada isn’t pulling its fair share of the defense of NA. The only reason that Canada isn’t in the sights of some other country is because of the US to the south of us. In the past I’d say invading someone across the ocean would be tough, but have you seen the size of cruise ship, or oil tankers lately? A couple of cruise ships packed with troops could easily match the forces we could bring to bear quickly and if they did a ‘Sherman March’ from Ocean to Ocean it would devastate Canada. It wouldn’t take huge amounts of artillery and air power, either, as Canada doesn’t have much to counter with. I’m not saying that this is even slightly likely, but the only reason that Canada is Canada is because of our neighbors to the south and if you deny it I think you are deluding yourself. IMHO (having been in the Canadian Infantry and having had a chance to see what Canada is really good at), We should cut back on the size of the military even further yet keep the current funding. We should concentrate on our strengths which is supplying some of the best soldiers on the planet. Create a fast light infantry reaction force that is capable of going into those situations where tanks and other expensive weapons aren’t necessary. Scrap the airpower as the US handles that anyway better than we could hope to. Get the necessary helicopters/aircraft that can move those troops to where they are needed. Make them the best trained and equiped army for their role and size in the world. [Canada at War](http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/canada.html) ---
**Author:** ![CheekyMonkey613](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e480ec/32.png) [@CheekyMonkey613](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheekyMonkey613)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/153 "2004-02-27T04:15:18Z")
> [@msklystron](#): > > Gufaw! Okay girl, up yers, as in bottoms up. What’s your favourte brew? (Hoping you don’t say Brador.) ONLY Molson Dry will do, my friend. Pour yourself one and let’s watch this debate die down nicely. ---
**Author:** ![c42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a87d85/32.png) [@c42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c42)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/154 "2004-02-27T04:17:49Z")
Man, this is an interesting thread - I wish I’d seen it sooner. I have an interesting perspective as a Canadian living in New Zealand. We’re having the exact same debate here, but only with Australia in the place of the USA. According to the [CIA world factbook](http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html), New Zealand is 144th in our defense spending (Canada is 135th). The USA and Australia are 47th and 55th respectively. Ironically New Zealand probably faces far more in the way of direct threats than Canada does (or will do in the next 100 years). We’ve got most of Asia, Indonesia and the like who are unstable at the best of times. And how have we reacted? _We sold off our airforce._ Well, that’s not entirely accurate. We got rid of our old A4’s (you know the ones the Brits trounced back in the Falklands with their Harriers?) and nixed a deal to buy F16’s. All we have now is search and rescue capablity and disaster relief. And that’s something we do very well. Australia’s been bitching at us for several years to upgrade our defensive forces, but people here really don’t give two hoots about having tanks and jets (yes, we have no tanks at all!) I’m glad that both my home country and the country I grew up in are sensible enough to realise that they only need enough forces to help others in their time of need, although by the sounds of it, Canada’s forces could use some better digs! ---
**Author:** ![msklystron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@msklystron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msklystron)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/155 "2004-02-27T04:19:39Z")
> [@CheekyMonkey613](#): > > ONLY Molson Dry will do, my friend. Pour yourself one and let’s watch this debate die down nicely. Sounds good to me. Can I have an Alexander Keith’s pale ale. I a wussy Torontonian. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/156 "2004-02-27T04:21:59Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I think the point of this thread is that Canada isn’t pulling its fair share of the defense of NA. > The only reason that Canada isn’t in the sights of some other country is because of the US to the south of us. In the past I’d say invading someone across the ocean would be tough, but have you seen the size of cruise ship, or oil tankers lately? A couple of cruise ships packed with troops could easily match the forces we could bring to bear quickly and if they did a ‘Sherman March’ from Ocean to Ocean it would devastate Canada. It wouldn’t take huge amounts of artillery and air power, either, as Canada doesn’t have much to counter with. > I’m not saying that this is even slightly likely, but the only reason that Canada is Canada is because of our neighbors to the south and if you deny it I think you are deluding yourself. > IMHO (having been in the Canadian Infantry and having had a chance to see what Canada is really good at), We should cut back on the size of the military even further yet keep the current funding. We should concentrate on our strengths which is supplying some of the best soldiers on the planet. Create a fast light infantry reaction force that is capable of going into those situations where tanks and other expensive weapons aren’t necessary. Scrap the airpower as the US handles that anyway better than we could hope to. Get the necessary helicopters/aircraft that can move those troops to where they are needed. Make them the best trained and equiped army for their role and size in the world. > > [Canada at War](http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/canada.html) Well, I like your proposal (though I’d increase the funding anyways) about specializing in infantry, but I have to say that your suggestion that anyone could march coast to coast with the forces that would fit on a couple supertankers is utterly ridiculous. Think logistics, my friend. ---
**Author:** ![c42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a87d85/32.png) [@c42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c42)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/157 "2004-02-27T04:24:26Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Well, I like your proposal (though I’d increase the funding anyways) about specializing in infantry, but I have to say that your suggestion that anyone could march coast to coast with the forces that would fit on a couple supertankers is utterly ridiculous. Think logistics, my friend. Absolutely Right! Canada is a massive country…it takes most of a week just to cross the thing. If the locals dynamited the railroads and the tunnels it would be damn near impossible to get through the rockies without getting bogged down for a couple of weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/158 "2004-02-27T04:29:19Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Well, I like your proposal (though I’d increase the funding anyways) about specializing in infantry, but I have to say that your suggestion that anyone could march coast to coast with the forces that would fit on a couple supertankers is utterly ridiculous. Think logistics, my friend. Hence my comment about Sherman’s March to the sea. Travelled across Georgia living off the land, burning everything as he went. Would be relatively easy to do in Canada (assuming again that there wasn’t a US to the south of us to help out.) ---
**Author:** ![c42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a87d85/32.png) [@c42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c42)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/159 "2004-02-27T04:34:38Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Hence my comment about Sherman’s March to the sea. Travelled across Georgia living off the land, burning everything as he went. Would be relatively easy to do in Canada (assuming again that there wasn’t a US to the south of us to help out.) But where would this threat come from? Can you name one country that would have the will and the resources to prosecute such a campaign? At the moment the only country I could think of that might even be a blip on the radar in that regard is China…and to be honest I see them going for Japan, Taiwan, Korea et al looooong before Canada hits their agenda. The USA has had a ‘substantial’ military from the late 19th century onwards; yet is has NEVER been called on to protect Canada in all that time. What makes people think that this will change in the next 50 or 100 years? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134/160 "2004-02-27T04:43:54Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Hence my comment about Sherman’s March to the sea. Travelled across Georgia living off the land, burning everything as he went. Would be relatively easy to do in Canada (assuming again that there wasn’t a US to the south of us to help out.) Surely you aren’t being serious. A modern army can’t live off the land. And a non-modern army would be massacred by partisans whilst crossing the prairies. There’s a reason we’re ticked off about the gun registry, you know. Anyways, our navy might not be tremendously formidable, but I do believe our frigates are a match for your average cruise liner. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-gives-up-on-their-military-i-wonder-who-theyre-depending-on-now/231134.md?page=9)