# Canada grants Refugee Status to White South African: Racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2009, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-grants-refugee-status-to-white-south-african-racist/508620 "2009-09-02T08:57:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-grants-refugee-status-to-white-south-african-racist/508620/1 "2009-09-02T08:57:51Z")
[Canada has given refugee status to a White South African man](http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/02/2674765.htm) who alleges he was being targeted in his home country because of his race. Naturally, there are quite a few people (including the African National Congress, South Africa’s governing party) who have called the decision “racist”. However, I disagree. Racism goes both ways, and judging from what pretty much every White South African I’ve ever met has told me, I think the Canadian decision is the right one in the situation. Of course, it sets and interesting precedent, but I thought it might be an interesting discussion topic- is it racist (as in, the “bad kind”) to allow refugee claims from White people who are minorities in predominantly black countries, and feel they are being mistreated or that the Government cannot (or will not) protect them from harm? Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-grants-refugee-status-to-white-south-african-racist/508620/2 "2009-09-02T09:18:38Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > [Canada has given refugee status to a White South African man](http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/02/2674765.htm) who alleges he was being targeted in his home country because of his race. Given my experience in South Africa (Gauteng prov), I doubt it was solely because of his race, probably economic as much as race. Have had good black friends get jacked by the black criminals, and blacks get killed just as dead. South Africa ain’t Zim mate. > [@](#): > > Naturally, there are quite a few people (including the African National Congress, South Africa’s governing party) who have called the decision “racist”. Racist, nah. Perhaps misplaced, but not racist. > [@](#): > > However, I disagree. Racism goes both ways, and judging from what pretty much every White South African I’ve ever met has told me, I think the Canadian decision is the right one in the situation. I’d take care in basing your impressions of South Africa on the spin that Whites who fled South Africa c. 1994-2004 give it. They tend to be, in my experience, those with the most “issues” relative to race, and most likely to see generalised crime problems mostly through the race lens. Not to say that race issues are not evident in RSA, but the problem of crime is so overwhelming across the board that I see it mostly as a failure from the post-Apartheid transition. Black government was too chary about imposing security for the common good, off the legit bad memories of who police were used in Apartheid. Seems to me a lot of crime is a-racial and economic, as Black middle class victims get treated as savagely as White middle class (and above). Just so happens that Whites are the majority of the middle class. I’d also call the achievements of transition are fairly impressive, amazing really the White elite has retained essentially its assets. > [@](#): > > Of course, it sets and interesting precedent, but I thought it might be an interesting discussion topic- is it racist (as in, the “bad kind”) to allow refugee claims from White people who are minorities in predominantly black countries, and feel they are being mistreated or that the Government cannot (or will not) protect them from harm? > > Thoughts? Not racist as such, and not a bad thing. I believe Canada was probably wrong on the facts in this, but RSA should probably just shrug and say “bollocks” and move on, rather than make a big to do. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-grants-refugee-status-to-white-south-african-racist/508620/3 "2009-09-02T09:59:35Z")
I’d be more convinced if he had applied for asylum _immediately on re-entering Canada_ the second time, rather than only when he was about to be kicked out after his initial (non-refugee) visa ran out. Seconding that if all you hear about SA is from ex-pats (often with their own axes to grind), you won’t get the full picture. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-grants-refugee-status-to-white-south-african-racist/508620/4 "2009-09-02T10:07:37Z")
White South African here. While I don’t think it is racist decision it does set an interesting precedent and I can see the Canadian government being inundated by thousands of similair requests. Huntley’s comment that he did not report the robberies to police because he did not trust them, however is racist because most police are black and if he believed he was being targeted because he was white then he would probably believe that a black policeman would support his muggers. “The Canadian refugee board agreed that there was persecution of whites by blacks in South Africa.” This statement shows a stunning amount of ignorance on the part of the refugee board and I personally find it infuriating. There is no persecution of whites, there is anger and resentment and envy but that is because whites still have most of the money, and therefore power, in South Africa. Also if Huntley did not go to the police, then he cannot claim that the SA government can’t/won’t protect him because he never bothered to seek help in the first place. > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > However, I disagree. Racism goes both ways, and judging from what pretty much every White South African I’ve ever met has told me, I think the Canadian decision is the right one in the situation. If the white South Africans you have spoken to are living outside of the country then their opinions don’t count, they ran from the country because they expected the new government to be like the old government except this time the whites would be on the bottom. I live in the South Africa that actually exists, I don’t cower in fear from the country I imagine and I am telling you that the Canadian decision is deluded. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-grants-refugee-status-to-white-south-african-racist/508620/5 "2009-09-02T10:08:24Z")
Hoor, hoor!! (I agree with the comments of all three of my esteemed colleagues…) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-grants-refugee-status-to-white-south-african-racist/508620/6 "2009-09-02T10:21:08Z")
Bollocks, should have read the arty more closely. > [@yendis](#): > > White South African here. > > While I don’t think it is racist decision it does set an interesting precedent and I can see the Canadian government being inundated by thousands of similair requests. Second that. > [@](#): > > (Yendis]Huntley’s comment that he did not report the robberies to police because he did not trust them, however is racist because most police are black and if he believed he was being targeted because he was white then he would probably believe that a black policeman would support his muggers. Now that is indeed problematic. Real problem in RSA is finding a bloody police officer. Buggers are rare as a sober man in Manchester after a match. But with the World Cup coming, Gov’t seems to have finally gotten a fucking clue that general insecurity ain’t just white whinging on. > [@](#): > > Yenis: “The Canadian refugee board agreed that there was persecution of whites by blacks in South Africa.” > This statement shows a stunning amount of ignorance on the part of the refugee board and I personally find it infuriating. There is no persecution of whites, there is anger and resentment and envy but that is because whites still have most of the money, and therefore power, in South Africa. I agree with that, persecution is daft. There are unhealthy remnants one can see pretty clearly if one is an outsider (as I am), but actually it’s pretty bloody amazing how much there seems to be quite the inverse, a desire not to persecute. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’d be more convinced if he had applied for asylum _immediately on re-entering Canada_ the second time, rather than only when he was about to be kicked out after his initial (non-refugee) visa ran out. Kha. Well that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-grants-refugee-status-to-white-south-african-racist/508620/7 "2009-09-02T12:49:03Z")
Race is a recognised basis of persecution giving rise to protection obligations in a nation signatory to the Refugees Convention. Secondly, the Applicant claims to be unable to avail effective protection from the state. Accordingly, the grant of refugee status is unremarkable and does not intimate racism. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-grants-refugee-status-to-white-south-african-racist/508620/8 "2009-09-02T15:13:30Z")
From this wikipedia [article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees) > [@](#): > > Article 1 of the Convention as amended by the 1967 Protocol provides the definition of a refugee: > > “A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it..” I want to know how they showed that it was a \*well-founded \*fear, when millions of white South Africans manage to wonder around totally unpersecuted, government inefficiancy can only explain so much after all. In fact I’m thinking of asking the Department of Home Affairs to fast track my persecution so I can get refugee status in time for Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-grants-refugee-status-to-white-south-african-racist/508620/9 "2009-09-02T15:38:33Z")
I hate to comment on specific legal procedures based on laws I am not intimately familiar with, so I’ll keep my comments general. In general, it is nonsensical and ignorant to claim that violent crime in South Africa is specifically targeted at white people, and to grant refugee status on this basis makes no sense at all. Violent crime is a huge problem, but honestly as a white, middle-class South African I was in a much better position than a black, poor South African to avoid areas and situations where I would have been most at risk. If Canada wants to go down this road then it needs to be prepared to accept the entire population of South Africa as refugees! If prioritizing by risk, I don’t think white and middle-class would be where you start. Someone living in poverty in a terrible neighborhood is far more at risk. The ironic reality behind making judgments based on “what pretty much every White South African I’ve ever met has told me” is statistically that is the group with the greatest opportunities, including immigrating to English speaking Western countries. The poor black man who got knifed and mugged in a township is never going to show up in a Sydney or Atlanta suburb, armed with stories of oppression and victim hood. He will remain anonymous, and unheard of, but in reality is in far greater danger. I wasn’t privy to all the proceedings and evidence in this specific case, so I will reserve judgment on the specific people involved. Perhaps their case was unique, with a specific and compelling scenario. But in general, white South Africans should not be granted refugee status due to violent crime unless the same status is granted to black South Africans (I’m not sure if a general “its too violent” rule is a basis for refugee status, so that may mean that the status is simply unavailable). ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-grants-refugee-status-to-white-south-african-racist/508620/10 "2009-09-02T15:47:34Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > I wasn’t privy to all the proceedings and evidence in this specific case, so I will reserve judgment on the specific people involved. Perhaps their case was unique, with a specific and compelling scenario. But in general, white South Africans should not be granted refugee status due to violent crime unless the same status is granted to black South Africans (I’m not sure if a general “its too violent” rule is a basis for refugee status, so that may mean that the status is simply unavailable). Well, I think they should get the angle as ethnicity, i.e. “Well as a !Xosa in X Land I am targetted, look at the crime and voilence.”