# Canada stands by torture of child **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682 "2008-07-16T14:24:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/1 "2008-07-16T14:24:55Z")
I started this off in Great Debates but then I realized that if anything is pit-worthy, it’s this. > [@](#): > > Khadr, the child of Egyptian and Palestinian parents in a fundamentalist Muslim family in Toronto, was only 15 when he was taken into custody and transported to the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo [in 2002]. ([CBC](http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/khadr/omar-khadr.html)) He is a Canadian citizen. He is the youngest prisoner to be held at Guantanamo and remains the only Western citizen there. The [Rolling Stone](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11128331/follow_omar_khadr_from_an_al_qaeda_childhood_to_a_gitmo_cell/1) did an extensive review in 2006. Since then there has been new evidence that he was not, in fact, the only person at the scene who could have thrown the grenade that killed the soldier. It is also apparent that he is not exactly a hardened jihadist. > [@](#): > > Omar Khadr is “salvageable” and a “good kid,” but a prolonged detention at Guantanamo Bay could turn the Canadian into a radical, say the U.S. soldiers who guard him. > > His guards describe him as a “likable, funny and intelligent young man,” according to documents from Foreign Affairs, which also state the 21-year-old hopes Canada will get him out of the U.S.-run detention centre in Cuba. It is also now evident that he has been badly mistreated / tortured (but please let us not hijack this thread in that direction), and that Canadian federal agents knew about it. Most recently a video has been released of CSIS [interrogating him](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080715.w2khadr15/BNStory/International/home) in 2003. Throughout, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s position has been to “let the process work.” [Last week](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080711.KHADR11/TPStory/?query=harper+khadr) he said > [@](#): > > “Mr. Khadr is accused of very serious things. There is a legal process in the United States,” Mr. Harper said in Japan yesterday. “He can make his arguments in that process.” I understand things are happening behind the scenes, diplomacy, discretion, blah blah. But other Western leaders have been able to spring their citizens from that hellhole. Not only is he being mistreated (at best) but he has no hope of a fair trial. In my opinion Harper’s attitude is beyond sickening. To stand by the torture of a former child soldier under any circumstances - particularly these - is unconscionable. I have never been so ashamed of my country.\* - [But this does ease my pain a little.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgentaler#Order_of_Canada) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/2 "2008-07-16T14:37:50Z")
As upsetting as the video is, it does not show torture. (No more than the infamous Abu Ghaib photos showed torture.) They show the results of torture. The Canadian guys are not doing anything wrong with the prisoner. How he was reduced to this blubbering mass is unknown, and creepy as hell. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/3 "2008-07-16T15:03:33Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] As upsetting as the video is, it does not show torture. (No more than the infamous Abu Ghaib photos showed torture.) They show the results of torture. The Canadian guys are not doing anything wrong with the prisoner. [/QUOTE] I didn’t mean to imply that the video showed torture of that those Canadians are doing anything wrong. The only culpable Canadian is Stephen Harper, our “leader.” My point is that Khadr is (a) a child soldier (b) being held without possibility of a fair trial (c) evidently being badly mistreated / tortured and that Harper is being a total jackass about it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/4 "2008-07-16T15:07:39Z")
[QUOTE=cowgirl] It is also now evident that he has been badly mistreated / tortured (but please let us not hijack this thread in that direction), and that Canadian federal agents knew about it. [/QUOTE] I don’t quite see how it’s evident that he’s been tortured. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/5 "2008-07-16T15:19:00Z")
[QUOTE=cowgirl] My point is that Khadr is (a) a child soldier… [/QUOTE] How is he a soldier? Soldiers wear uniforms, answer to an identifiable chain of command, and fight according to established laws of armed conflict. I doubt you can make the case that Khadr was doing any of these things. Calling him a soldier seems mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/6 "2008-07-16T15:31:25Z")
[QUOTE=cowgirl] I didn’t mean to imply that the video showed torture of that those Canadians are doing anything wrong. The only culpable Canadian is Stephen Harper, our “leader.” [/QUOTE] Not that I despise Harper any less (I do) but the Martin and Chretien admins are just as culpable in letting Khadr rot in Cuba. Harper’s tacit approval of torture and his willing role as Bush lackey are unique to his admin, though. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/7 "2008-07-16T15:31:38Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] How is he a soldier? Soldiers wear uniforms, answer to an identifiable chain of command, and fight according to established laws of armed conflict. I doubt you can make the case that Khadr was doing any of these things. Calling him a soldier seems mistaken. [/QUOTE] The key word here is “child,” not “soldier.” He was 15 at the time of his detention. Are you defending the detention without trial of a 15 year old Canadian citizen? > [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t quite see how it’s evident that he’s been tortured. I have specifically used the term mistreated/tortured to imply “mistreated and/or tortured” so as to avoid this debate. He has certainly been mistreated [U.S. treatment of Khadr may have exceeded military’s own guidelines](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080711.KHADRFLYER11/TPStory/National) > [@](#): > > In subjecting Omar Khadr to the so-called “frequent flier program” - a sleep deprivation technique that has since been prohibited - the U.S. military may have exceeded even its own guidelines on the controversial practice. > > Department of Foreign Affairs documents made public this week show that the U.S. military intentionally deprived Mr. Khadr of sleep in order to “make him more amenable and willing to talk” prior to a visit by Canadian officials to Cuba in 2004. Is there anything other than semantic nitpickery to defend Khadr’s treatment? ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/8 "2008-07-16T15:33:03Z")
[QUOTE=Hodge] Not that I despise Harper any less (I do) but the Martin and Chretien admins are just as culpable in letting Khadr rot in Cuba. Harper’s tacit approval of torture and his willing role as Bush lackey are unique to his admin, though. [/QUOTE] Fair point. My mistake to omit the previous administration from my scorn. ---
**Author:** ![Antigen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/9 "2008-07-16T15:52:14Z")
Regarding Harper’s statement: “Mr. Khadr is accused of very serious things. There is a legal process in the United States,” Mr. Harper said in Japan yesterday. “He can make his arguments in that process.” Um… he’s been there six years. What “process” is going on, exactly, in which he’s getting a chance to defend himself against the charges against him? I’m not saying he should be released, charges dropped, brought back to Canada for a parade, or anything. The charges are pretty serious, and I don’t know the details of the case. But this whole “we’re going to hold you here forever without a trial” is kind of ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/10 "2008-07-16T16:11:35Z")
Whadday talking? All he has to do is prove he is innocent! Of course, there are a few minor barriers to that… ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/11 "2008-07-16T16:15:02Z")
While agree a trial should be done and soon. I have little sympathy for this boy and especially for his family, who we generously allow to stay in our country despite the fact they openly hate our country and joined up with our enemies to fight our allies. In the old days that would constitute as treason n’est pas? ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/12 "2008-07-16T16:21:45Z")
[QUOTE=kingpengvin] While agree a trial should be done and soon. I have little sympathy for this boy and especially for his family, who we generously allow to stay in our country despite the fact they openly hate our country and joined up with our enemies to fight our allies. In the old days that would constitute as treason n’est pas? [/QUOTE] Maybe for the family, but they remain free, and the boy is imprisoned. What is the evidence of his own treason? Or are we satisfied with guilt by association? Also, “we” don’t allow Canadian citizens to “stay” in “our” country, generously or otherwise. It doesn’t work that way. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/13 "2008-07-16T16:30:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Calling him a soldier seems mistaken. [/QUOTE] And yet, it isn’t: [QUOTE=The Free Dictionary] sol·dier (sljr) n. 1. One who serves in an army. 2. An enlisted person or a noncommissioned officer. **3. An active, loyal, or militant follower of an organization.** 3. a. A sexually undeveloped form of certain ants and termites, having large heads and powerful jaws. b. One of a group of honeybees that swarm in defense of a hive. intr.v. sol·diered, sol·dier·ing, sol·diers 1. To be or serve as a soldier. 2. To make a show of working in order to escape punishment. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/14 "2008-07-16T16:39:22Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] And yet, it isn’t: [/QUOTE] You just chose the definition that covers people who call themselves “soldiers” of the Lions Club or “soldiers” of the KKK. We could all be considered “soldiers” of the SDMB. Kinda disingenuous when talking about someone who was captured while fighting the U.S. Army, doncha think? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/15 "2008-07-16T16:43:33Z")
He was captured in the vicinity of people who were fighting US soldiers. That’s pretty much all we know, unless you know more? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/16 "2008-07-16T16:44:10Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] You just chose the definition that covers people who call themselves “soldiers” of the Lions Club or “soldiers” of the KKK. We could all be considered “soldiers” of the SDMB. Kinda disingenuous when talking about someone who was captured while fighting the U.S. Army, doncha think? [/QUOTE] I don’t believe that any of us “soldiers of the SDMB” has participated in an armed insurrection lately, although I could be wrong. Haven’t heard from any of our Congolese members in a while… He is alleged to have been a member of Al Quaeda, or at least operating on their behalf; and fighting an occupying force in a sovereign state that had (or has) no standing army. How is he not a soldier? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/17 "2008-07-16T16:46:16Z")
Look, I don’t argue this for the sake of semantics - soldier has a very specific meaning. And a big reason why this is important is that soldiers are entitled to full protections of the Geneva Conventions, while unlawful combatants are entitled to only abbreviated protections of these. Soldiers, for instance, cannot be tried for fighting their enemies, except in the very specific instance of war crimes. Unlawful combatants can be tried, however, and most of the legal wrangling these many years is exactly how we’re going to do that. Now a teenager can shoot a gun or toss a grenade at least as well as a full grown man, so that particular point doesn’t impress me. Indeed, we try children in our own country for crimes all of the time. And while I wish this had been concluded a lot sooner, the fact is the boy wouldn’t be in Gitmo today if his family hadn’t set out to turn him into a terrorist. So I do feel for the boy in a way - he was bound for ruin with his particularly fundamentalist family. But the fact remains that he’s hoping for aid from Canada now to save his own skin - a few years back, he was in a camp training to attack Western countries including Canada. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/18 "2008-07-16T16:46:31Z")
If he was a soldier, he would have certain rights. He has no rights, therefore, he is not a soldier. Q.E.D. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/19 "2008-07-16T16:51:16Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] If he was a soldier, he would have certain rights. He has no rights, therefore, he is not a soldier. Q.E.D. [/QUOTE] Do you think Khadr is entitled to a trial? ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682/20 "2008-07-16T17:01:01Z")
snip: [QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] I don’t believe that any of us “soldiers of the SDMB” has participated in an armed insurrection lately, although I could be wrong. [/QUOTE] Give it time comrade. Give it time. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canada-stands-by-torture-of-child/456682.md?page=2)