# Canada's US Dairy Tariff **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 12, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941 "2018-06-12T03:53:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/22 "2018-06-15T00:23:48Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > Don’t recall using the term “balmy”, but the fact is the Canadian winters are longer and colder on average than Wisconsin winters. On average Wisconsin January temperatures are around 40 degrees Fahrenheit (high/low average). In Quebec January temperatures average 15 degrees Fahrenheit (high/low average). [foghorn leghorn]I say, I say, that’s a whoosh, son.[/foghorn] ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/23 "2018-06-15T00:34:09Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There is no amount of milk needed. People can survive just fine without milk. What the milk market management system does is ensure farmers get more of their countrymen’s money. Almost half the dairy farms in Canada are in Quebec which the rest of the country has to kowtow to for political reasons. Thus the tariffs for milk are especially egregious. > As someone who enjoys milk quite a bit, I would love it if another country would come in and start selling milk at a sharp discount. Every industry thinks it is special and thus they need the government to reach into their fellow citizens pockets for them. Whether or not people can survive without milk is entirely beside the point. Milk is in huge demand not just for direct consumption, but as an ingredient in many food products (cheese, ice cream, yogurt, butter, etc). Surely given how much people enjoy consuming dairy products, it would make no sense to be solely reliant on importing the main ingredient when we are perfectly capable of producing it ourselves and providing employment to those supplying the ingredient? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/24 "2018-06-15T15:00:55Z")
Another factor you have to remember when Trump is using this as an example of how “unfair” NAFTA is, is that the US knew about Canada’s dairy management system when they were negotiating NAFTA. Do you imagine that the US just said, “Oh, okay, you can keep that”, without extracting some other concession in a different area of NAFTA? It only looks unfair when you only look at what Canada got, and refuse to look at what Canada might have given up. Which is, of course, exactly how Trump looks at every deal. But we don’t have to sit idly by and let him get away with that. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/25 "2018-06-15T15:45:02Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > they buy all production and then sell it on to the blessed manufacturers of all dairy products. I thought only cheesemakers were blessed. Are you saying his words are not to be taken literally? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/26 "2018-06-15T16:02:20Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > [foghorn leghorn]I say, I say, that’s a whoosh, son.[/foghorn] It’s not a whoosh. penultima thule was suggesting that Wisconsin gets cold too so it doesn’t have a weather advantage over Canada, but it simply does not get as cold. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/27 "2018-06-15T18:09:27Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > I say this because its more difficult and expensive to raise dairy cattle in Canada because of the climate. The longer, colder winter means a shorter grain growing season, so cattle feed is not as abundant in Canada and thus more expensive. Someone should tell the good people of Saskatchewan that it is uneconomical to grow grain in Canada. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/28 "2018-06-15T18:16:08Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Someone should tell the good people of Saskatchewan that it is uneconomical to grow grain in Canada. 😃 _[Psst…We used to game that system too](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Wheat_Board)_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/29 "2018-06-15T18:22:56Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > _[Psst…We used to game that system too](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Wheat_Board)_ 😃 Not the same thing at all. The Wheat Board was as often opposed as supported by farmers (who thought they could get a better price if wheat was sold outside the board), and did not prop up the price of wheat - rather, it caused farmers to farm stuff not subject to the Board, like canola. From your cite: > [@](#): > > Modern criticism[edit] > > Arguments in favour of privatization believe that farmers should be allowed to opt out of the board.[29] Others believe that they could get a better price for their grain than the board itself and would like to market their own grain.[29] For many Western Canadian farmers, the argument over the CWB Single Desk was about personal freedom[citation needed] - the freedom to market their production of crops in the manner they choose. > > The Single Desk control of price and the ability of farmers to deliver wheat and barley created an interest in other crops, causing a surge in acres of canola and pulse crops - crops with no delivery or price controls. This led to a decline in wheat acres and an increase in other crops. Now, with equal delivery opportunity, relative prices are the driving force in making cropping decisions, leading to an appropriate mix of crops based on relative global demand. Also from your cite: > [@](#): > > American complaints[edit] > > Although the Board was reformed to meet free market conditions under the North American Free Trade Agreement and the World Trade Organization Treaty, American producers continually complained. Despite numerous challenges and much posturing by the United States, the World Trade Organization ruled in 2003 that the Wheat Board was a producer marketing body and not a system for government subsidy although the decision has since been overturned. In fact, Canadian producers have almost no government subsidy while their American and European Union counterparts are heavily subsidized.[34][35][36] The attacks on the Wheat Board were, at the time, one of the major irritants in bilateral relations between Canada and the United States. The notion that it is relatively uneconomical to grow grains in Canada because it is cold here is simply incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/30 "2018-06-15T18:25:59Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I thought only cheesemakers were blessed. Are you saying his words are not to be taken literally? All manufacturers of dairy products… and the Greeks. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/31 "2018-06-15T18:39:01Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > If the goal is to preserve availability of food in times of crisis, you can have tariffs which equal foreign subsidies or simply not allow foreign imports of staples. In Canada, there is supply management of maple syrup, because if Canada doesn’t manage supply, it’ll get overtaken by foreign producers and then they might run short of the existentially strategic resource that is maple fucking syrup? > > This is no different than British Luddites 200 years ago who were against the general lowering of textile prices because of better technology and efficiency. Yes, farms will close and people will lose their jobs and the latter should be helped although not qua farmers. The reduction in the proportion of farmers has been happening for the last few hundred years and has greatly improved human welfare overall. Farmers used to be 90% of the population and now they’re much less because greater productivity resulted in needing to allocate a smaller percentage of the population to food production. That’s a great thing. I guess creative destruction is great as long as it’s not happening close to the present, then it’s abominable. > > Trying to keep farmers employed by messing with supply, prices or subsidies is as silly as trying to keep steelworkers and coal miners employed. Wait… steelworkers? That’s exactly what trump is trying to do. The protectionist game works both ways. Canada used to have high duties on clothing and shoes, so did the USA - but at a certain point, foreign production could undercut even those prices. No matter how fancy the equipment, there’s only so fast you can push a pair of cut cloths through a sewing machine. So the only question is “how little can you pay them?” But once the industry disappears, it doesn’t come back on demand - leading to absurdities like Trump brand ties, Ivanka’s line of goods, and MAGA hats, all made overseas - not just because it’s impossible to find local manufacturers who can come close to competing on price, but because those factories have disappeared to the point that even if you chose to manufacture in the USA, there’s nobody with the scale of factory production to do what you want. The question is, how many of those facilities - manufacturing, resource acquisition, agriculture, etc. can a country really afford to lose and on what scale? Basic food production is probably the one thing that any country want to ensure they have… ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/32 "2018-06-15T18:50:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Someone should tell the good people of Saskatchewan that it is uneconomical to grow grain in Canada. 😃 He didn’t say it was uneconomical. He said they face a shorter growing season, which is a disadvantage. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/33 "2018-06-15T19:00:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > He didn’t say it was uneconomical. He said they face a shorter growing season, which is a disadvantage. No. What he said was: > [@](#): > > I say this because its more difficult and expensive to raise dairy cattle in Canada because of the climate. The longer, colder winter means a shorter grain growing season, so cattle feed is not as abundant in Canada and thus more expensive. This contains testable assertions - notably, that grain, and thus, cattle feed is “less abundant” and “more expensive” in Canada. Is there any proof of this? It seems odd, then, that Canada is a major net exporter of grain, competing successfully in world markets against the US, given that grain is “more expensive” here. > **[A rising tide: Canada exceeds U.S. in wheat exports](https://www.albertafarmexpress.ca/news/a-rising-tide-canada-exceeds-u-s-in-wheat-exports/)** > > After decades of playing second fiddle to its southern neighbour, the low Canadian dollar and other factors have Canada's wheat exports edging ahead in what some industry observers consider a new trend. Note that the price of wheat is “low” and is not set by Canada … > [@](#): > > “Canada does not dictate world wheat prices,” Jubinville said. “We are price takers. We are never price makers. The world is still flush with wheat and looking at the largest carry-outs in human history, so that’s the overriding wet blanket situation. Until we have some type of real and credible threat to next year’s production… I don’t think there is anything on the horizon to suggest a sustained up trend at this time.” ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/34 "2018-06-15T19:27:54Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > Canada could remove the dairy tariffs and simply say dairy products produced with growth hormones are not allowed to be sold in the country. > > (Canadian farmers don’t use growth hormones, U.S. farmers do.) The problem is that you can’t tell from the milk whether the cows used growth hormones or not\*. So US farm corporations could just follow their Presidents’ example and lie, claiming to Canada all their milk was produced without growth hormones. \*Not without expensive & time-consuming, and sometimes not accurate, lab tests. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/35 "2018-06-15T23:11:02Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Someone should tell the good people of Saskatchewan that it is uneconomical to grow grain in Canada. 😃 If you had bothered to read my post you would have seen that I never said anything about it being uneconomical to grow wheat in Saskatchewan. I said their growing season is shorter than wheat growing areas south in the US. Wheat is grown as far south as Texas which has a much longer growing season than anywhere in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/36 "2018-06-15T23:16:50Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Wait… steelworkers? That’s exactly what trump is trying to do. > > The protectionist game works both ways. Canada used to have high duties on clothing and shoes, so did the USA - but at a certain point, foreign production could undercut even those prices. No matter how fancy the equipment, there’s only so fast you can push a pair of cut cloths through a sewing machine. So the only question is “how little can you pay them?” But once the industry disappears, it doesn’t come back on demand - leading to absurdities like Trump brand ties, Ivanka’s line of goods, and MAGA hats, all made overseas - not just because it’s impossible to find local manufacturers who can come close to competing on price, but because those factories have disappeared to the point that even if you chose to manufacture in the USA, there’s nobody with the scale of factory production to do what you want. > > The question is, how many of those facilities - manufacturing, resource acquisition, agriculture, etc. can a country really afford to lose and on what scale? Basic food production is probably the one thing that any country want to ensure they have… I’m curious, why can I buy a pair socks made in North Carolina? (Great socks BTW and very reasonably priced.) ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Passing\_Through](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Just\_Passing\_Through](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Passing_Through)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/37 "2018-06-16T00:01:19Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > Don’t recall using the term “balmy”, but the fact is the Canadian winters are longer and colder on average than Wisconsin winters. On average Wisconsin January temperatures are around 40 degrees Fahrenheit (high/low average). In Quebec January temperatures average 15 degrees Fahrenheit (high/low average). Bullshit. I know nothing of the temps in Canada, but I know it is colder than 40 here in January. Maybe 40 down towards Illinois, but up here where the cows are it’s half that. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/38 "2018-06-16T02:23:20Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > I’m curious, why can I buy a pair socks made in North Carolina? (Great socks BTW and very reasonably priced.) And I can buy 6 pairs of socks here in Canada from Costco for the equivalent of $7.70US. Made in China. There are still some textile and clothing factories in the USA and Canada, but the vast majority have gone overseas, there’s not enough left here to supply the market if they had to. You can bring those jobs back, if you impose major tariffs. Then clothing would be fairly expensive again, and even then, the workers in those plants would likely be getting minimum wage. When floods hit Thailand a few years ago, there was a severe shortage of hard drives. Earthquake in Taiwan over a decade ago and RAM chips were in short supply. There are probably some technologies - like CPU chips - that for national security reasons should not be lost to overseas. And by losing that capability, we are held ransom to foreign events. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/39 "2018-06-16T12:54:10Z")
> [@Just\_Passing\_Through](#): > > Bullshit. I know nothing of the temps in Canada, but I know it is colder than 40 here in January. Maybe 40 down towards Illinois, but up here where the cows are it’s half that. I remember watching “Grumpy Old Men” and thinking - they’re driving on the ice and going ice fishing at Thanksgiving. Must be Hollywood script writers who think the whole north freezes solid after labour day. Even in Canada, and allowing for inordinately late US version of Thanksgiving, the ice is not that thick… in fact quite often by the third week in November there may be no ice. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/40 "2018-06-16T15:04:29Z")
How do the Vancouverites (and other Canadians?) who reputedly make milk and cheese runs over the border to buy much more cheaply in the U.S. manage to sneak their purchases back home? You’d think the Canadian dairy industry would demand cheese-sniffing dogs at the border to stop the flow of illicit dairy goods. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941/41 "2018-06-16T15:56:20Z")
You get to bring in a certain amount of goods duty-free when you take a trip to the States. If you’re over the amount, you pay duty on the excess. Bringing back some milk would normally be below the quota. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadas-us-dairy-tariff/815941.md?page=3)