# Canadian Dopers: are you scared of Justin Trudeau? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359 "2014-08-12T09:40:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/81 "2015-06-28T23:03:06Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Meh. > > I recall enough media references to “the Trudeau government,” “the Mulroney government,” “the Chretien government,” and “the Martin government” over the years. And no media outlet is obligated to follow what the government of the day wants to call itself–see Charter s. 2(b), “freedom of … expression.” > > Seems to me that your beef is more with the media for not exercising their Charter rights as regards freedom of expression than it is with a government who would simply like to be known in a certain way. If the Toronto Star calls today’s government, “the Harper Government,” then that is the Star’s choice, and the Star knows it, as do its lawyers. Canada is not a country where a government can dictate how it is referred to in the media. You’re completely missing the point. This is not about how the media may choose to refer to a particular government. It’s about Harper’s edict directing how _ **the government must refer to itself in all official communications** _. It’s a partisan rebranding of the state itself. The standard terminology in all official government communications has been “the Government of Canada”, in conformance with the requirements of the Federal Identity Program. Provincial governments have similar policies, specifically to prevent partisanship in government communications. Yet in December of 2010 (IIRC), an edict went out from the Prime Minister’s Office to all departments ordering that henceforth, in all government press communications “the Government of Canada” was to be “the Harper Government™”. This is not some silly exercise in egotistical neurosis, like Trump plastering his name over everything. It’s a calculated branding of all government communications, and thus the government itself, in Harper’s name. Harper’s role model here appears to be Louis XIV, who similarly said “l’état, c’est moi” in asserting the divine right of kings. Harper himself was a bit more subtle when he simply said, in a famous comment in 2010, “I make the rules”. Indeed he does. When first elected in 2006 his original rebranding decree was the somewhat more modest “Canada’s New Government”. When a government scientist refused to obey the decree and transgressed by referring to the government as “the Government of Canada”, the scientist was fired. Apparently, we don’t do executions any more. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/82 "2015-06-29T00:26:34Z")
Exactly! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/83 "2015-06-29T01:10:09Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Nothing weird about it. Conservatives believe in privatization and getting government out of areas where it doesn’t belong. Me too. Let’s start with getting it out of the business of controlling the opinions of scientists when their findings contradict right-wing dogma. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/84 "2015-06-29T01:47:43Z")
And second we can spend more money on improving veterans benefits than advertising how much we ‘appreciate’ their service. How Harper has treated this country’s veterans is beyond shameful in my opinion. And maybe third, tighten up rules for spending in the senate and house! I find it a little odd all sides are busy decrying the scandal but not a whisper of making the rules tight, iron clad, enforceable and overseen. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/85 "2015-06-29T13:39:45Z")
Thanks \*wolfpup, \*for providing the links. I am more convinced now than ever that Harper has to go. Now I am trying to decide which other party to support. I wish Jack were alive. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/86 "2015-06-29T14:42:58Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Scientists want the right to publish their findings when research funded by the government disagrees with their agenda. Currently they simply suppress it. That’s just appalling, by any measure. > > They changed every reference to, “The Canadian Government”, in every news release/publication they’ve ever done to, “The Harper Government”, I hate them for this alone. > > If you don’t think this government is destroying Canada do a little reading about recent events in Shoal Lake. If that doesn’t disgust you, colour me stunned! (Sorry, tried three times to make a link!) Huh? What’s the source for this? I looked at the Canadian government site, it still has “Government of Canada” on news releases. Example, a news release dated today: [http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=993429&crtr.tp1D=1](http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=993429&crtr.tp1D=1) > [@](#): > > Government of Canada supports important wastewater system upgrades in McAdam through the Small Communities Fund I can’t find any evidence of general re-branding of “Government of Canada” as “The Harper Government”. Look for yourself. > [@](#): > > News Releases > > View Government of Canada news releases that are listed from the newest to the oldest. [http://news.gc.ca/web/nwsprdct-en.do?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&crtr.tp1D=1](http://news.gc.ca/web/nwsprdct-en.do?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&crtr.tp1D=1) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/87 "2015-06-29T15:03:15Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > You’re completely missing the point. This is not about how the media may choose to refer to a particular government. It’s about Harper’s edict directing how _ **the government must refer to itself in all official communications** _. It’s a partisan rebranding of the state itself. > > The standard terminology in all official government communications has been “the Government of Canada”, in conformance with the requirements of the Federal Identity Program. Provincial governments have similar policies, specifically to prevent partisanship in government communications. Yet in December of 2010 (IIRC), an edict went out from the Prime Minister’s Office to all departments ordering that henceforth, in all government press communications “the Government of Canada” was to be “the Harper Government™”. > > This is not some silly exercise in egotistical neurosis, like Trump plastering his name over everything. It’s a calculated branding of all government communications, and thus the government itself, in Harper’s name. > > Harper’s role model here appears to be Louis XIV, who similarly said “l’état, c’est moi” in asserting the divine right of kings. Harper himself was a bit more subtle when he simply said, in a famous comment in 2010, “I make the rules”. > > Indeed he does. When first elected in 2006 his original rebranding decree was the somewhat more modest “Canada’s New Government”. When a government scientist refused to obey the decree and transgressed by referring to the government as “the Government of Canada”, the scientist was fired. Apparently, we don’t do executions any more. It would be a very significant point if there was a general re-branding of Canadian government news releases to read “Harper Government” rather than “Government of Canada”. However, that doesn’t appear to actually be the case. See links in post above. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/88 "2015-06-29T22:59:44Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It would be a very significant point if there was a general re-branding of Canadian government news releases to read “Harper Government” rather than “Government of Canada”. > > However, that doesn’t appear to actually be the case. See links in post above. You might have a point were it not for the fact that what I said was absolutely correct, and you must surely be aware that this has been a major issue since this idiot was first elected. Let me first of all make the minor point that I looked at your links, and right at this moment there are only three articles on the first page (ordered by date) that make any kind of reference to the federal government (as opposed to some group or department) and the three articles are: Harper Government Recognizes the National Historic Significance of Saint-Eustache Church Harper Government creates new jobs for youth in Kenora Harper Government announces support for youth crime prevention and addiction services in Sydney, Nova Scotia But be that as it may, the larger point is that the particular “Harper Government” edict to which I refer [has been in the media since early 2011](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/a-rebranding-of-the-harper-government-1.1040716). If you do a search there are thousands of press articles and editorial outrage about it. Just look at the picture of that press release in the above-linked article that discusses the whole issue. Is this practice now becoming less stringent and “Government of Canada” coming back into use in some cases? You wouldn’t know it from the articles I just mentioned, but let me quote noted evangelical nutcase and creationist lunatic Stockwell Day (from the above link), who in 2011 was Harper’s appointee to the Treasury Board: “If you think you’re on to something that is going to ignite people from coast to coast in a fury of rage, maybe we’ll look at it. But this is the first I’ve heard of it, so good luck with it,” Day told CBC News. So, hey, maybe they looked at it! And maybe decided to occasionally cut some agencies some slack because the PR scam had backfired on them. If you have any doubt that Harper is a control freak for whom this is absolutely typical then you haven’t been paying attention to his entire pattern of tyrannical media management. As I mentioned earlier, shortly after his election in 2006, [Harper fired a senior government scientist](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/b-c-scientist-booted-over-refusal-to-use-new-government-1.607254) for refusing to use what was then his marketing catchphrase, “Canada’s New Government”. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/89 "2015-06-29T23:27:23Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > You might have a point were it not for the fact that what I said was absolutely correct, and you must surely be aware that this has been a major issue since this idiot was first elected. > > Let me first of all make the minor point that I looked at your links, and right at this moment there are only three articles on the first page (ordered by date) that make any kind of reference to the federal government (as opposed to some group or department) and the three articles are: > > Harper Government Recognizes the National Historic Significance of Saint-Eustache Church > Harper Government creates new jobs for youth in Kenora > Harper Government announces support for youth crime prevention and addiction services in Sydney, Nova Scotia > > But be that as it may, the larger point is that the particular “Harper Government” edict to which I refer [has been in the media since early 2011](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/a-rebranding-of-the-harper-government-1.1040716). If you do a search there are thousands of press articles and editorial outrage about it. Just look at the picture of that press release in the above-linked article that discusses the whole issue. > > Is this practice now becoming less stringent and “Government of Canada” coming back into use in some cases? You wouldn’t know it from the articles I just mentioned, but let me quote noted evangelical nutcase and creationist lunatic Stockwell Day (from the above link), who in 2011 was Harper’s appointee to the Treasury Board: > “If you think you’re on to something that is going to ignite people from coast to coast in a fury of rage, maybe we’ll look at it. But this is the first I’ve heard of it, so good luck with it,” Day told CBC News. > So, hey, maybe they looked at it! And maybe decided to occasionally cut some agencies some slack because the PR scam had backfired on them. If you have any doubt that Harper is a control freak for whom this is absolutely typical then you haven’t been paying attention to his entire pattern of tyrannical media management. As I mentioned earlier, shortly after his election in 2006, [Harper fired a senior government scientist](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/b-c-scientist-booted-over-refusal-to-use-new-government-1.607254) for refusing to use what was then his marketing catchphrase, “Canada’s New Government”. Here’s the problem. The article starts off with “A British Columbia man says he’s been dumped from his role…” It’s a one-sided story with no chance for the “Harper Government” to provide their side of the story. This is typical of the CBC and most media in Canada. The CBC hates Conservative governments because their funding is challenged and even cut. And so it should be. CBC TV sells advertizing like any other station. If they can’t swim, let 'em sink. What about hearing about “Obamacare” or “The Obama Administration?” Is that worrisome to you? If not, why not. You’re looking for irrational things to hate this current government, which I honestly believe is the best government we’ve had in a generation. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/90 "2015-06-30T00:22:06Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Nothing weird about it. Conservatives believe in privatization and getting government out of areas where it doesn’t belong. I’m all for privatization. The private sector (statistically) delivers services more effectively than the public sector. > > Also, it removes pension obligations from the taxpayers and moves it to the private sector: who can argue with that? Your neighbors to the south, for one. In the financialized US economy of the last 30 years, private companies, for all their huge asset portfolios and talk of wealth creation, ended up defunding and defaulting on their pension plans. The US federal government took them over as insurer of last resort, or something. Capitalism of the Thatcherite variety has a track record. And it is inferior to a deeper, more _dirigiste_ social democracy, _by Thatcherism’s own putative standard of increased wealth and opportunity for the masses,_ as seen by its effect on the median voter. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/91 "2015-06-30T00:30:12Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Here’s the problem. The article starts off with “A British Columbia man says he’s been dumped from his role…” It’s a one-sided story with no chance for the “Harper Government” to provide their side of the story. The Harper Government™ does not lack opportunity to “provide their side of the story” with their [ironclad control of the message](http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2008/05/26/how_harper_controls_the_spin.html). But wait … that’s an investigative piece from the Toronto Star, which you hate. How about Global Television, via [canada.com](http://canada.com): [Stephen Harper vs. The Press](http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/story.html?id=89eafbaf-ddbe-45b6-aff9-f33ec9cb20a3) Or perhaps all media has a “liberal bias”? Where have I heard that before? 😉 The many links I posted earlier don’t lie. Disbelieve one, disbelieve two. You can’t disbelieve them all. Harper is a media control freak. > [@Leaffan](#): > > This is typical of the CBC and most media in Canada. The CBC hates Conservative governments because their funding is challenged and even cut. And so it should be. CBC TV sells advertizing like any other station. If they can’t swim, let 'em sink. CBC is Canada’s national broadcaster, and if you look at the funding that they get compared to the national broadcasters of any other civilized country in the world\*, it’s pathetically tiny. I’m not going to go chasing down the numbers right now but I’m sure you can Google as well as I, and I have a number of reports somewhere listing the numbers. I don’t necessarily disagree with your earlier comments about other institutions. Privatize Canada Post? Maybe. Mail is no longer an essential public service and CUPW has been one of the most arrogant unions in national history. Privatize liquor sales in Ontario? Maybe; it’s a very complex issue and as always, the devil is in the details. But you’re way, way over the top in lumping the CBC into the same category. The CBC is much more than just television, but the reason they have to sell ads is precisely because of the limited funding. Yet they still manage world-class national news and documentaries, and CBC Radio is in my view second to none in the world despite a shoestring budget. You can listen to CBC Radio as you drive around the country, almost everywhere; if there isn’t a station, there’s a relay retransmitter. To me CBC Radio **is** Canada – a unifying and pervasive underpinning of our values. ## The CBC is our national broadcaster – as close as we can come to an independent non-commercial national broadcaster that is free of commercial interference, especially in radio, but very much in television with national institutions like the National News and icons like Peter Mansbridge. The CBC is more than just a unifying agent of national values – like all public broadcasters, they serve an essential purpose in promoting an informed public and are an essential pillar of our democracy, just like public broadcasters in other civilized countries in the world. Yes, I know conservatives hate it. I’ve had these conversations with conservatives before. They argue that publicly funded broadcasters are no good because the government controls them, yet somehow the CBC has some horrible liberal bias despite a decade of rule by The Harper Government™! They argue that the CBC has some horrible liberal bias despite a complete inability to provide any substantive evidence to support it. The reality is that without a national public broadcaster, all we’d have is commercial media beholden to commercial interests, just like the US. \*The US is the only exception. The CPB and its children, NPR and PBS, are paupers that are even more pathetically underfunded and conservatives there want to shut it down entirely. US broadcasting is primarily commercial and caters to corporate interests and, no coincidence, so is their government. > [@Leaffan](#): > > What about hearing about “Obamacare” or “The Obama Administration?” Is that worrisome to you? If not, why not. Because, as I’ve already said several times, what the media chooses to call the government or its programs is entirely different from an order coming down from on high about what government employees must call it. > [@Leaffan](#): > > You’re looking for irrational things to hate this current government, which I honestly believe is the best government we’ve had in a generation. I don’t need to look, it’s all there. And I’m sure you honestly believe it’s a terrific government. I’m sure you also honestly believe the CBC is useless, biased, and should be privatized. Perhaps it should be turned into a version of either Fox News or the Fox network, and the CBC National News with Peter Mansbridge should be replaced by reality shows with Kim Kardashian. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/92 "2015-06-30T00:39:09Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > You’re looking for irrational things to hate this current government, which I honestly believe is the best government we’ve had in a generation. Ever since you told me: 1. that I couldn’t vote in the Ontario election because I wasn’t Canadian; 2. that you’d invited me to meet you while I was in Ottawa; I don’t believe a word you say. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/93 "2015-06-30T00:57:12Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Ever since you told me: > > 1. that I couldn’t vote in the Ontario election because I wasn’t Canadian; > > 2. that you’d invited me to meet you while I was in Ottawa; > > I don’t believe a word you say. Do you have a cite stating that you can vote in an Ontario election without being a citizen? [This cite](http://wemakevotingeasy.ca/en/who-can-vote.aspx?channel_id=%7B1bc89a95-b8bf-471e-8c4e-966b739c6aae%7D&lang=en), and many others say you can’t. Jeez, I’m sorry you left Ottawa before we could have a beer. Why is this my fault? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/94 "2015-06-30T01:05:30Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Do you have a cite stating that you can vote in an Ontario election without being a citizen? No, I don’t. I don’t need one. I am a Canadian citizen. You told me I couldn’t vote because I wasn’t. > [@](#): > > Jeez, I’m sorry you left Ottawa before we could have a beer. Why is this my fault? Because you claimed at a later date (well after I was back in the U.S.) that you’d invited me to meet. You had not done so. Exactly one person asked me to meet, and we did. It wasn’t you. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/95 "2015-06-30T01:06:30Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The Harper Government™ does not lack opportunity to “provide their side of the story” with their [ironclad control of the message](http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2008/05/26/how_harper_controls_the_spin.html). > > But wait … that’s an investigative piece from the Toronto Star, which you hate. How about Global Television, via [canada.com](http://canada.com): > [Stephen Harper vs. The Press](http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/story.html?id=89eafbaf-ddbe-45b6-aff9-f33ec9cb20a3) > > Or perhaps all media has a “liberal bias”? Where have I heard that before? 😉 > > The many links I posted earlier don’t lie. Disbelieve one, disbelieve two. You can’t disbelieve them all. Harper is a media control freak. > CBC is Canada’s national broadcaster, and if you look at the funding that they get compared to the national broadcasters of any other civilized country in the world\*, it’s pathetically tiny. I’m not going to go chasing down the numbers right now but I’m sure you can Google as well as I, and I have a number of reports somewhere listing the numbers. > > I don’t necessarily disagree with your earlier comments about other institutions. Privatize Canada Post? Maybe. Mail is no longer an essential public service and CUPW has been one of the most arrogant unions in national history. Privatize liquor sales in Ontario? Maybe; it’s a very complex issue and as always, the devil is in the details. > > But you’re way, way over the top in lumping the CBC into the same category. > > The CBC is much more than just television, but the reason they have to sell ads is precisely because of the limited funding. Yet they still manage world-class national news and documentaries, and CBC Radio is in my view second to none in the world despite a shoestring budget. You can listen to CBC Radio as you drive around the country, almost everywhere; if there isn’t a station, there’s a relay retransmitter. To me CBC Radio **is** Canada – a unifying and pervasive underpinning of our values. > > ## The CBC is our national broadcaster – as close as we can come to an independent non-commercial national broadcaster that is free of commercial interference, especially in radio, but very much in television with national institutions like the National News and icons like Peter Mansbridge. The CBC is more than just a unifying agent of national values – like all public broadcasters, they serve an essential purpose in promoting an informed public and are an essential pillar of our democracy, just like public broadcasters in other civilized countries in the world. Yes, I know conservatives hate it. I’ve had these conversations with conservatives before. They argue that publicly funded broadcasters are no good because the government controls them, yet somehow the CBC has some horrible liberal bias despite a decade of rule by The Harper Government™! They argue that the CBC has some horrible liberal bias despite a complete inability to provide any substantive evidence to support it. The reality is that without a national public broadcaster, all we’d have is commercial media beholden to commercial interests, just like the US. > > \*The US is the only exception. The CPB and its children, NPR and PBS, are paupers that are even more pathetically underfunded and conservatives there want to shut it down entirely. US broadcasting is primarily commercial and caters to corporate interests and, no coincidence, so is their government. > > Because, as I’ve already said several times, what the media chooses to call the government or its programs is entirely different from an order coming down from on high about what government employees must call it. > > I don’t need to look, it’s all there. And I’m sure you honestly believe it’s a terrific government. I’m sure you also honestly believe the CBC is useless, biased, and should be privatized. Perhaps it should be turned into a version of either Fox News or the Fox network, and the CBC National News with Peter Mansbridge should be replaced by reality shows with Kim Kardashian. Yes. Obviously we should replace the CBC with reality TV, and perhaps even the Kardashians. That’s exactly what I’m proposing. look, we all have different political views, and that’s great actually. Sometimes I get a little wound up over this and I apologize for insulting or crass comments made, but the reality is that no one can be right, and no one can be wrong. At present I believe the country is pretty much split in thirds with respect to our three main parties. The country won’t fall apart regardless of who wins the next election. My view is that the Conservatives have done a great job guiding Canada through the worst recession since the great depression. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/96 "2015-06-30T01:13:13Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > No, I don’t. I don’t need one. I am a Canadian citizen. You told me I couldn’t vote because I wasn’t. I don’t recall this. Can you find the post in question? > [@](#): > > Because you claimed at a later date (well after I was back in the U.S.) that you’d invited me to meet. You had not done so. Exactly one person asked me to meet, and we did. It wasn’t you. I don’t recall this. Can you find the post in question? I recall saying something like “Jeez Frank, if I’d known you were in Ottawa I would have asked you to join me for a beer,” Oh, look what I just found, [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-431021.html) > [@](#): > > Leaffan > 08-08-2007, 02:16 PM > Jeez Frank, I had no idea until I just read all of this thread. I’m in the west end of the city. Please feel free to contact me for a beer, a chat, directions, thoughts… > > And welcome, mon ami. > > Will you still moderate from Canada? Is that allowed? 😉 > > Seriously, you seem like a decent enough fellow to share a beer with. Let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/97 "2015-06-30T01:38:51Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Oh, look what I just found, [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-431021.html) You’re right, I apologize. I can’t find the other thread; it was one where I complained about my vote being dropped in the box while I was at the other end making sure I was registered. As I recall, you PMed me. Didn’t want to meet you after that, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/98 "2015-06-30T01:42:28Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > You’re right, I apologize. > > I can’t find the other thread; it was one where I complained about my vote being dropped in the box while I was at the other end making sure I was registered. As I recall, you PMed me. Didn’t want to meet you after that, anyway. Sure. ETA: I don’t PM very often, and I certainly don’t recall PMing you. You’re delusional. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/99 "2015-06-30T13:51:37Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > You might have a point were it not for the fact that what I said was absolutely correct, and you must surely be aware that this has been a major issue since this idiot was first elected. But it isn’t “absolutely correct”. It is provably wrong. What you said was that “It’s about Harper’s edict directing how the government must refer to itself in all official communications. It’s a partisan rebranding of the state itself.” But that isn’t the case. There are tons of examples where the term “Government of Canada” is used. Including the heading of the news releases webpage itself, which reads: > [@](#): > > News Releases > > View Government of Canada news releases that are listed from the newest to the oldest. [Emphasis added] What appears to be the case is that when something originates from the government itself, it is labelled “government of canada”, and when something originates from a minister or the PM, it is labelled “Harper Government”. This isn’t, to my mind, a big deal, and does not amount to a “rebranding of the state”. > [@](#): > > Let me first of all make the minor point that I looked at your links, and right at this moment there are only three articles on the first page (ordered by date) that make any kind of reference to the federal government (as opposed to some group or department) and the three articles are: > > Harper Government Recognizes the National Historic Significance of Saint-Eustache Church > Harper Government creates new jobs for youth in Kenora > Harper Government announces support for youth crime prevention and addiction services in Sydney, Nova Scotia > > But be that as it may, the larger point is that the particular “Harper Government” edict to which I refer [has been in the media since early 2011](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/a-rebranding-of-the-harper-government-1.1040716). If you do a search there are thousands of press articles and editorial outrage about it. Just look at the picture of that press release in the above-linked article that discusses the whole issue. That’s just the point - a big stink was made in the press about a situation that (either because they were warned off it by the stink, or alternatively, because the stink was inaccurate) never happened. It simply is not the case today, which anyone can see for themselves. > [@](#): > > Is this practice now becoming less stringent and “Government of Canada” coming back into use in some cases? You wouldn’t know it from the articles I just mentioned, but let me quote noted evangelical nutcase and creationist lunatic Stockwell Day (from the above link), who in 2011 was Harper’s appointee to the Treasury Board: > “If you think you’re on to something that is going to ignite people from coast to coast in a fury of rage, maybe we’ll look at it. But this is the first I’ve heard of it, so good luck with it,” Day told CBC News. > So, hey, maybe they looked at it! And maybe decided to occasionally cut some agencies some slack because the PR scam had backfired on them. If you have any doubt that Harper is a control freak for whom this is absolutely typical then you haven’t been paying attention to his entire pattern of tyrannical media management. As I mentioned earlier, shortly after his election in 2006, [Harper fired a senior government scientist](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/b-c-scientist-booted-over-refusal-to-use-new-government-1.607254) for refusing to use what was then his marketing catchphrase, “Canada’s New Government”. I’m no admirer of Day, but to me his quote means ‘I dunno about this issue, but if it proves to be a big deal, I’ll look into it’. It is perfectly possible that it was all a nefarious plan that got derailed because the press found out about it, as you allege. It is also possible that it was a tempest in a teapot, faux outrage stirred up in the press over a plan that was never intended. What is certain is that it is not the case today that the Canadian government has been “rebranded”, as two second’s worth of looking into the matter demonstrates. As for the Scientist you mentioned - he was reinstated with the clarification that the term was always intended for ministerial correspondence only, not for actual government workers. Again, one could interpret this as a government functionary in the Deputy Minister’s office going on a damaging frolic quickly repudiated by the actual government - or as a deeply laid nefarious Conservative plot foiled by the press - take your pick. > [@](#): > > Issues regarding usage of the phrase within the public service culminated in a situation where Dr. Andrew Okulitch, a retired research scientist and at that time a scientist emeritus with the Geological Survey of Canada, refused to comply with a communications directive from Natural Resources Canada that specified employees use the term. > > It read as follows: > “As per the Minister’s Office, effective immediately, the words “Canada’s New Government” are to be used instead of “the Government of Canada” in all departmental correspondence. Please note that the initial letters of all three words are capitalized. Thank you for your cooperation.” (September 5, 2006, Vanessa Nelson, Executive Advisor, Communications Branch, Natural Resources Canada) [1]) > This was followed with a reply from Dr. Okulitch to all recipients of the email: > “Why do newly elected officials think everything begins with them taking office? They are merely stewards for as long as the public allows. They are the Government of Canada. Nothing more. I shall use “Geological Survey of Canada” on my departmental correspondence to avoid any connection with “New Government.” The GSC, steward to Canada’s earth resources for 164 years, is an institution worthy of my loyalty, as opposed to idiotic buzzwords coined by political hacks.” (Dr. Andrew Okulitch, Scientist Emeritus, Geological Survey of Canada, Earth Sciences Sector, Natural Resources Canada [2]) > Dr. Okulitch received this reply to his email within an hour from Dr. Irwin Itzkovitch, then Assistant Deputy Minister, Earth Sciences Sector: > “Given your strong though misdirected views of the role and authority of the Government as elected by the people, and your duty to reflect their decisions, I accept that you are immediately removing yourself from the Emeritus Program. I wish you every success in your future.” (Dr. Irwin Itzkovitch, Special Advisor, Deputy Minister’s Office, Natural Resources Canada [3]) > A media frenzy ensued, deriding the federal government’s treatment of the affair and Dr. Okulitch was reinstated by Deputy Minister of Natural Resources, Cassie Doyle [4] who informed Dr. Okulitch that he would not have to use the phrase as it was not intended for “working-level people and never was.” [5] This was confirmed by Minister of Natural Resources, Gary Lunn, who said there was no expectation for anyone in the department to use the slogan. > **[Canada's New Government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_New_Government#Okulitch_incident)** > > "Canada's New Government" was a branding term or political slogan used by the Government of Canada during the first twenty months of the 28th Canadian Ministry under Stephen Harper. Previously, federal government announcements simply referred to the "Government of Canada". > Harper, leader of the Conservative Party, took office as Prime Minister of Canada on February 6, 2006. Immediately thereafter, the federal government began to use the term as part of a marketing campaign to differentiate the ... Seems to me that what happened was this: the “advisors” misinterpreted the scope of the directive; scientist called them out on it and called them idiots; they took offence and fired him; press storm ensues; Minister reinstates him (and no doubt some bad things happend to the “advisors”). To my mind at least, the actual facts demostrate that, if one was already inclined to dislike the conservatives, their rapacious tendencies were only kept in check by the couragous press – or, if one was neutral or liked the conservatives, a bunch of tempests in teapots blown way out of proportion. In any event, in both cases the “harm” - complete rebranding of Canada, firing of a scientist - came to nothing: the rebranding didn’t happen, and the scientist was reinstated with the responsible Minister confirming that the scientist was right all along! Not, perhaps, the best incidents to use to demonstrate the unreasonableness and dictatorial behaviour of the government. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359/100 "2015-06-30T20:41:00Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > look, we all have different political views, and that’s great actually. Sometimes I get a little wound up over this and I apologize for insulting or crass comments made, but the reality is that no one can be right, and no one can be wrong. It’s amusing how much the right-wing rely on moral relativism. **Malthus** , did you literally concede that what **wolfpup** described actually happened and then tell him he was wrong to claim so? Wow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-are-you-scared-of-justin-trudeau/695359.md?page=6)