# Canadian 'dopers, Freedom Convoy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 10, 2022, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186 "2022-02-10T00:07:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/121 "2022-02-12T20:01:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Residents of Caledonia might disagree, but I will ask again; what if they did? Exactly the same thing. Would you have the same opinion? I mean, pick First Nation group at random, and chances are you’ll find a buckload of more legitimate grievances than these protesters have. So I’m not at all sure we’d have to have the same opinion of an equivalent FN protest in order to be consistent. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/122 "2022-02-12T20:07:14Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I mean, pick First Nation group at random, and chances are you’ll find a buckload of more legitimate grievances than these protesters have. So I’m not at all sure we’d have to have the same opinion of an equivalent FN protest in order to be consistent. I don’t see what that has to do with it. Your position on what the protesters are protesting about isn’t the same as whether 1. It’s a “Fringe” position, or 2. The legality and appropriateness of the tactics of the protest. A protest is either legal or illegal, ethical or unethical. Whether I agree or not is irrelevant. I would be sick and tired of the trucker blockades if I agreed with them 100% up and down the line; they should have shown up, protested for a day, make some noise and been a little inconvenient, and gotten the hell out of town. The government should have done something about it long ago. I have exactly the same opinion despite not agreeing with them about, really, anything. How far a protest can go is a matter of the law, not of whether I support their position. I cannot say that I sincerely believe in civil rights if the extent to which I am willing to extend to others is proportional to how much I sympathize with them. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/123 "2022-02-12T20:21:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > A protest is either legal or illegal, ethical or unethical. Are you suggesting that I can’t hold the view that whether a specific form of protest is ethical depends on what the protest is about? That seems horribly wrong. Legality, sure. Blocking a street or whatever either is or is not legal, and what I’m protesting won’t impact that. But the judgement on whether a protest is ethical is a whole other matter. If, for example, our government were holding political prisoners, disappearing dissenters in the middle of the night, murdering journalists and opposition politicians, etc, then a whole fuck of a lot of illegality at protests might be ethically justified, up to and including assaulting police officers. On the other hand, if I’m protesting because the government refuses to pay me compensation for letting me be abducted by aliens, then my protest doesn’t ethically justify so much as jaywalking. If I see other people protesting in the same way on those two grounds, I don’t have to form the same judgement about the legitimacy of their tactics in each case in order to have a coherent, consistent moral stance. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/124 "2022-02-12T20:26:57Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As to the guilt by association thing, come on. I will again pose this point; if a few people, even an organizer, espouses offensive beliefs at a BLM rally, or a rally for indigenous rights, does that mean the people there with more reasonable demands are all guilty of thse beliefs by association? Well, one, not “an organizer”. All of the main organizers are fascists. Two, we’re not talking about a couple of people with odious beliefs. There is, for example, an entire contingent of “Sons of Odin” there. Come on, let’s not play around on this. The convoy was created as a con to grift people into giving money to alt-right white nationalist and for them to garner some support. To not see that is to intentionally have blinders on. That they succeeded so well is a humiliation to Canada. In any case, the people who have stayed are by-and-large apparently ok with the alt-right and quite possibly somewhat ok with the white nationalist too. If you want to talk about some hypothetical protest where one or two people are bad eggs and the rest are legitimate protestors then I might agree with you, but that’s not the case here. This was a “protest” started by fascists for fascist purposes. They found a nice wedge issue that they could use to get the “I hate Trudeau and so should should you” types on their side to bolster their numbers and to take their money. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/125 "2022-02-12T20:52:45Z")
Nazi sympathizers and overt racists turn up at these rallies because they know they’ll be tolerated. And they are. This bunch is worse than Trumpers, they’re just Canadian wanna be Trumpers, could anything be lamer? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/126 "2022-02-12T21:12:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Protests are not “not accepting democracy.” That’s just ridiculous. They are a fundamental part of a democracy. > > I’ll ask the same thing in reverse that I’ve asked protest supporters; if the protest was, say, First Nations people and their supporters protesting the treatment of aboriginal people, and they enjoyed substantial popular support but less than 50%, would you have exactly the same opinion? Would you dismiss them as “Not accepting democracy”? If the Natives’ demands included removing the entire government, just six months after the last election, in which the Natives grievances were a major election issue, with two national parties supporting that position, and two other national parties opposing that position, and the latter two parties won the election, then yes, I’d say they were “Not accepting democracy”. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/127 "2022-02-12T21:27:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As to the guilt by association thing, come on. I will again pose this point; if a few people, even an organizer, espouses offensive beliefs at a BLM rally, or a rally for indigenous rights, does that mean the people there with more reasonable demands are all guilty of thse beliefs by association? If they don’t speak up and distance themselves, then yes. You try explaining to your Jewish teenage girls that the nice people marching along with the white supremacists with the Nazi, Gadsden, and Confederate flags mean them no harm and most of the people just don’t want to have to get vaccinated. This is organized by hateful people to spread hate. If others are so susceptible to the BS that they are happy to march alongside, they are carrying the same message. This isn’t about being “woke”, but you come from a place of privilege here. They don’t want to “send you back from where you came from”. And 2/3 or respondents want to send the army in at this point. Enough is enough. > ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/128 "2022-02-12T21:36:58Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > If they don’t speak up and distance themselves, then yes. Well, I find that absurd. I’ve known lots of people who marched in BLM protests and they weren’t rioters or communists, even though many BLM protests involved riots. If you let a few maniacs force every protest to shut down because of guilt by association you’d hardly ever have a protest. Hell, you couldn’t have a decent sized parade. **And even then they still have exactly the same rights as anyone else, and their protest should be subject to exactly the same legal limitations.** > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > the nice people marching along with the white supremacists with the Nazi, Gadsden, and Confederate flags If those hadn’t been hustled out within a day, I’d see your point. Size matters. If a sizable portion of the protest are nazis or tiki-torch wielding weirdos, that’s another matter. That just isn’t the case here. Again, I don’t LIKE these people. They’re mostly nitwits. They should have been forced to break this shit up long ago. But this is NOT a fringe thing - t he fundamental purpose of the protest is protesting pandemic measures, not white supremacy, and it’s not subject to just a few percentage points of support. It has a lot of support, even now after vastly wearing out their welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/129 "2022-02-12T21:41:29Z")
No, the fundamental point of the protest is to own the libs. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/130 "2022-02-12T21:52:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve known lots of people who marched in BLM protests and they weren’t rioters or communists, even though many BLM protests involved riots. The intent of a BLM protest is not to riot. In some demonstrations, bad actors took advantage of the situation to cause problems. The intent of this “protest” _is_ to shut down the city and the nation. Causing problems is the goal of every single person there. Does the intent of the protestors not mean anything to you at all? As far as your continued accusations of communism, it’s not equivalent to fascism. One can make the argument that communism _could_ work, if done right, and is not hijacked by authoritarians. Fascism, the entire point is the authoritarianism. Communism in its simplest form is the ideal of from each according to their ability, to each according to their need. Naive and probably unworkable on any large scale, but that’s the ideal. The ideal of Fascism is a totalitarian state that violently suppresses any opposition and regiments society according to class. For instance, you have communes, where everyone gives and shares as equally as they can, and those work out on small scales just fine, for the most part. You can’t have authoritarian enclaves in the same way. So, your attempt at equivocating BLM for having _some_ leaders who subscribe to _some_ Marxist teachings to this convoy that was organized entirely by authoritarians is entirely misplaced. > [@RickJay](#): > > And even then they still have exactly the same rights as anyone else, and their protest should be subject to exactly the same legal limitations. Right, tell me how many international borders were shut down by BLM demonstrations. > [@RickJay](#): > > It has a lot of support, even now after vastly wearing out their welcome I’d still like to see a cite on that. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/131 "2022-02-12T21:58:08Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, I find that absurd. I’ve known lots of people who marched in BLM protests and they weren’t rioters or communists, even though many BLM protests involved riots The organizers and leaders fall squarely in the hatred camp. It’s not like some racist guys are just tagging along. I’ve made my views crystal clear: if you support this in anyway, you are either directly advocating or tacitly condoning violence against me and my family. Don’t “Yes, but…” unless you are willing to stand up and distance yourself from the hate. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/132 "2022-02-12T22:35:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So the claim they’re all white supermacists is, in fact, bullshit. Yes, the claim that nobody said (except you) is indeed bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/133 "2022-02-12T22:38:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’d still like to see a cite on that. As would I. I think that most of the folks who were fooled initially have now seen enough to know that this “protest” was co-opted early on by a bunch of idiots who wanted to simply cause chaos and have a “do-over” on the last election. What support they had initially is now back down to Western separatists, members of Bernier’s party and assorted [Q-anon and conspiracy theory nutbags.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/08/canada-ottawa-trucker-protest-extremist-qanon-neo-nazi) ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/134 "2022-02-12T22:54:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If those hadn’t been hustled out within a day, I’d see your point. Like these guys today standing on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier throwing Nazi salutes? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/135 "2022-02-12T23:02:37Z")
I’m surprised that’s possible. Seems someone tries that at Arlington, they are going to have a bad day. Is the Canadian equivalent not guarded? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/136 "2022-02-12T23:12:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Seems someone tries that at Arlington, they are going to have a bad day. Is the Canadian equivalent not guarded? Nope, and it’s pretty much right there, next to a major sidewalk that sees lots of foot traffic pretty much every day. You can see a photo of [Confederation Square here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_Square#/media/File:Confederation_Square_Ottawa.JPG). The Tomb is that rectangular bit in front of the statue of the soldiers hauling an artillery piece. [Here’s a map](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Confederation+Square/@45.4237264,-75.696182,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4cce04ffd8db36cf:0xb701621998ff3c05!8m2!3d45.4236662!4d-75.695207) that puts it in perspective of where it’s located in Ottawa. Parliament Hill is about a five minute walk west, so it’s right in the middle of everything. Canada largely relies on the honor system to keep people off it. Up to now, that’s been mostly successful. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/137 "2022-02-12T23:16:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Seems someone tries that at Arlington, they are going to have a bad day. Is the Canadian equivalent not guarded? There is normally an honour guard there. One of the soldiers on guard duty, Nathan Cirillo, was shot dead back in 2014. > **[2014 shootings at Parliament Hill, Ottawa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_shootings_at_Parliament_Hill,_Ottawa)** > > The 2014 shootings at Parliament Hill were a series of shootings that occurred on October 22, 2014, at Parliament Hill in Ottawa. At the National War Memorial, Corporal Nathan Cirillo, a Canadian soldier and reservist on ceremonial sentry duty, was fatally shot by Michael Zehaf-Bibeau. Described as mentally unwell, Zehaf-Bibeau then entered the nearby Centre Block parliament building, where members of the Parliament of Canada were attending caucuses. After wrestling with a constable at the ent... ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/138 "2022-02-12T23:18:00Z")
Yeah, I decided to check that, [it’s only guarded part time, it seems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tomb_of_the_Unknown_Soldier#Sentries): > [@](#): > > Since 2007, a pair of sentries from the [Ceremonial Guard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_Guard), in full dress uniform and with unloaded weapons, have been stationed at the tomb, on rotation from 9 am to 5 pm. Originally, the programme ran only through July and August. This was expanded in 2014 to run from April 9 (the date of the start of the Battle of Vimy Ridge) to November 10, as well as during significant military anniversaries throughout the rest of the year.[[6]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tomb_of_the_Unknown_Soldier#cite_note-SentryProg-6) ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/139 "2022-02-13T01:14:40Z")
Here’s Pat King, one of the organizers and a “Proud member of the White Race”. A fine young man /s > **[r/onguardforthee - Ladies and gentlemen, one of the organizers for the pick...](https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/comments/sqt4l3/ladies_and_gentlemen_one_of_the_organizers_for/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)** > > 3,333 votes and 474 comments so far on Reddit ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2022, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186/140 "2022-02-13T01:17:14Z")
In fact, I thought of Bernard when I made my original post. Of course, a pollster can generally get whatever answer they want by phrasing their question carefully. For my example… > [@](#): > > “Are you frustrated with Covid and the length of time restrictions have been in place, as the truckers are? Do you sympathize?” > > “Do you agree with the truckers government has sometimes been inconsistent with Covid policy?” > > “Do you support truckers exercising their legal right to peacefully protest?” > > “Do you support disrupting Canadian business using means contrary to Canadian law?” > > “Do you support foreign nations and extreme political groups funding disruption of the Canadian economy under the aegis of a truckers protest?” I would _guess_ that the respective replies from random Canadians would be: 80+% yes, 70+% yes, 50-60% yes, 20-30% yes and 5-10% yes. Which paper or party is funding the poll? And does the poll actually _ask_ random Canadians? (If you just asked people who live in downtown Ottawa, or rural Saskatchewan, the answers probably would differ somewhat.) Statistics is not that difficult, but most do not understand them well, nor how easy they are to manipulate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-dopers-freedom-convoy/959186.md?page=8)