# Canadian Parliament Attacked **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149 "2014-10-22T14:18:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/361 "2014-11-02T02:58:58Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > And if this madman had self identified as Napolean? > > What if he’d identified himself as a fundamentalist Christian? Would you be examining Christianity? I doubt it, no one would. Suddenly everyone would instantly see he’s just a nut bar, and taking his world for anything is beyond foolish. So, you are also taking the stance that his religious views had nothing to do with his actions. That religion, or any other idea for that matter, has no influence on his behavior? He’d do exactly the same thing regardless. It was his destiny to kill and other’s to die. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/362 "2014-11-02T13:33:05Z")
I think it’s wrong for that to be the focus when it seems transparently obvious that he’d have just glommed on to some other hated and feared barbaric group. Who, by the way knew nothing of this guy, had no hand in his actions. And he was, in fact, tossed from a mosque near Vancouver for being scary, well prior to these actions. Laying this on Islam, or Terrorism seems horribly misguided to me when it was pretty clearly a mental health issue. Many mentally ill people get to being convinced the government is out to get them. Should we waste time and money focusing on that connection? No, we acknowledge that this is a common manifestation of delusional, severe mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/363 "2014-11-02T14:40:36Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I think it’s wrong for that to be the focus when it seems transparently obvious that he’d have just glommed on to some other hated and feared barbaric group. Who, by the way knew nothing of this guy, had no hand in his actions. And he was, in fact, tossed from a mosque near Vancouver for being scary, well prior to these actions. > > Laying this on Islam, or Terrorism seems horribly misguided to me when it was pretty clearly a mental health issue. > > Many mentally ill people get to being convinced the government is out to get them. Should we waste time and money focusing on that connection? No, we acknowledge that this is a common manifestation of delusional, severe mental illness. But, it should at least be investigated, to see if any group helped push him over the edge or gave him some encouragement or helped him in some way. I see no reason it can’t potentially be both terrorism and a mental health issue ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/364 "2014-11-02T15:40:53Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > No, we acknowledge that this is a common manifestation of delusional, severe mental illness. Again, what you are saying is that there are no external factors that were at play in his decision to kill people. It is all internal. He would have attacked the same people, in the same way he did so regardless? Is that what you are saying? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/365 "2014-11-02T16:38:07Z")
There were external factors in the same sense that the white album was an external influence for Charles Manson, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/366 "2014-11-03T01:55:25Z")
So a direct call from ISIS for lone wolf attacks against France, the US and their allies, is the same as some mumbo jumbo from a song? We have a direct [call for action](http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/22/world/meast/isis-threatens-west/) from a terrorist group, then we have action by people supporting said group shortly after Canada says it will join the bombings against ISIS, yet you say there is no relation between the two. How do you justify this to yourself and, more importantly, why? ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/367 "2014-11-03T15:52:06Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I guess it comes down to what “crazy” means. I figure that anyone who runs about murdering people is crazy, but as we all know, some crazy people are quite rational, etc. For example, I worked on a spree killer’s appeal, and in all our conversations, not once there was there even a hint that he was crazy. He was an intelligent, clear thinking, pleasant person, but make no doubt about it, he was a cold blooded killer. Another commonly known example is a very senior member of our Air Force who was into raping and murdering, but no one, including his wife, had an inkling of what he was up to. > > That’s why I’m more concerned about what a person does than whether the person is sane or not. If a sane person wrongfully and intentionally kills someone, then to me it’s murder. If the motivation includes trying to intimidate the public for some sort of cause or ideology, then to me it’s also terrorism. I could not care at all if the person was mentally ill provided that the person understood the actions he was taking, for to me the harm done to the victims (both those physically harmed and the our society as a whole) should take priority. > > Should more resources be put into helping mentally ill people? Yes, but although that will help, that will not stop murders and will not stop of terrorism. No single thing will. > > When it comes to terrorism, the trick is to identify and block potential terrorists before they act, but to do so without locking up all the people who are mentally ill, or bugging everyone’s conversations and intercepting everyone’s emails and texts, or creating a culture of fear and suspicion. > > I’m very curious to see how our government handles this problem, and I very much hope it does not go overboard the way the USA has since 9/11. > > For example, the fellow who shot his way into Parliament was known to the authorities, but he was not blocked prior to his attack. What could have been done differently, what laws would have to be changed or created (if any) to effect this, and what cost to our freedom would such changes make? It’s a very tough balancing act, so I hope the legislators thoroughly and calmly debate the matter without getting bogged down into exaggeration and partisanship. > > On the enforcement side, I’m also concerned that we must not let the police get away with hauling people off on terrorism charges whenever a police officer is involved in a matter, e.g. when there are protests that get loud or violent, or at its extreme, if a person in an ordinary crime resists arrest and either says what he thinks of police, or assaults an officer. > > I’m not into burying our heads in the sand, and I’m not into chopping off everyone heads. It’s all about finding a balance. Thanks **Muffin** , you said what I obviously failed miserably at trying to. **Rickjay** and **Leaffan** , I must retract my statement about the mental health cuts as I couldn’t find the evidence I was looking for. I conflated Alberta’s health woes with the ROC and that was a mistake. My concern, so ineptly expressed earlier, is less to do with the attacks (which are horrific and I have nothing but sympathy for the families of Cpl Cirillo and WO Vincent) and more with what happens after the fact. [Link to Bill C-44](http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=6739855&File=4), and a [synopsis](http://www.nationalmagazine.ca/Articles/October-2014-web/The-new-anti-terrorism-bill.aspx). This is not the delicate balancing act that **Muffin** alludes to. IANAL but when this is added to the powers that already exist for CSIS and the RCMP, you could be in a world of hurt if you were ever falsely accused. If I understand it correctly you could be accused, detained almost indefinitely, and never be able to face your accuser because of informant confidentiality this Bill allows for. Isn’t this basically the complete antithesis of what this country’s rule of law was built on? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/368 "2014-11-07T23:58:26Z")
Here’s an [article from the Globe](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-residents-arrest-reveals-evolving-approach-in-terror-strategy/article21377340/)about a fellow who is in the process of being given the boot out of Canada. It’s well worth reading, for it deals with the subtleties of proactive efforts. With subtleties comes a lot of grey concerning the state’s actions, rather than the pasteboard black and white following a terrorist attack. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/369 "2014-11-10T17:25:12Z")
And here’s an [article from LawTimes](http://www.lawtimesnews.com/201410314296/headline-news/a-corporate-lawyer-s-unique-pro-bono-side-job#) on a fellow who works with the police by intervening to steer young men away from terrorism when it appears that they are moving toward it. He notes that there tend to be three types of people with terrorist-like inclinations: 1. Hard-core, middle aged men who are brainwashed and with whom it is impossible to rationally talk; 2. Young men from good families who are upset with what they see happening in the world and who still may be swayed toward steering their frustration into civic engagement; and 3. Mentally ill people who are lost, isolated, unemployed, with no previous cause or strong values, who convert to Islam and take up religions as a protest. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/370 "2014-11-10T17:37:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > 1. Mentally ill people who are lost, isolated, unemployed, with no previous cause or strong values, who convert to Islam and take up religions as a protest. For a lot of the sudden islamic radicals from families and communities with no association with islam I do think this is the answer. I think these people are basically lost in life and carry a lot of pain from the past and are angry at society, they see that radical islam(or even regular islam) has become a boogyman to mainstream society and latch onto it as a way to strike out at and basically troll society. Remember the famous nut Lee Harvey Oswald? Same kinda deal except at the time the societal boogeyman was communists and Russians, so he becomes a communist and then runs off to Russia and when he finds no one gives a shit he decides to strike out in a bigger way. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/371 "2014-11-10T17:41:26Z")
> [@grude](#): > > For a lot of the sudden islamic radicals from families and communities with no association with islam I do think this is the answer. > > I think these people are basically lost in life and carry a lot of pain from the past and are angry at society, they see that radical islam(or even regular islam) has become a boogyman to mainstream society and latch onto it as a way to strike out at and basically troll society. > > Remember the famous nut Lee Harvey Oswald? Same kinda deal except at the time the societal boogeyman was communists and Russians, so he becomes a communist and then runs off to Russia and when he finds no one gives a shit he decides to strike out in a bigger way. I think that’s a fairly appropriate analogy **grude**. This nutbar could have, in all probability, killed our Prime Minister and members of his cabinet. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/372 "2015-04-03T10:51:03Z")
Ontario Provincial Police report finds that RCMP / security forces reaction was appropriate: [OPP report exonerates Hill security in killing of Zehaf-Bibeau](http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/opp-report-exonerates-hill-security-in-killing-of-zehaf-bibeau). > [@](#): > > Parliament Hill security has been officially exonerated in the killing of terrorist gunman Michael Zehaf-Bibeau. > > The conclusion is contained in a final report on the extensive, independent OPP investigation into the circumstances and security response surrounding the Oct. 22 attack. > > Ontario Provincial Police investigators have ruled that RCMP and Hill security officers were justified in using lethal force to stop Zehaf-Bibeau after he evaded security measures and stormed the Centre Block with a rifle and knife, the Citizen has learned. > > The ISIL sympathizer was felled by a hail of bullets after penetrating deep into the Hall of Honour. Prime Minister Stephen Harper and the Conservative caucus were meeting in a committee room just metres away, as was the NDP caucus. ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/373 "2015-04-03T11:30:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Ontario Provincial Police report finds that RCMP / security forces reaction was appropriate: [OPP report exonerates Hill security in killing of Zehaf-Bibeau](http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/opp-report-exonerates-hill-security-in-killing-of-zehaf-bibeau). Did anyone in Canada feel the security forces weren’t justified in killing the guy? Did the police really have to justify their actions? I would think they would be focused on whether there was enough security ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/374 "2015-04-03T12:58:28Z")
> [@computergeek](#): > > Did anyone in Canada feel the security forces weren’t justified in killing the guy? Did the police really have to justify their actions? I would hope that all killings by police/security are reviewed for justification and appropriateness. Certainly I agree that this killing was both justified and appropriate. It should still be reviewed. > [@](#): > > I would think they would be focused on whether there was enough security That’s a separate issue. I expect that there is a separate review of that. I’d be astonished if there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/375 "2015-04-03T13:11:16Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > That’s a separate issue. I expect that there is a separate review of that. I’d be astonished if there isn’t. I’m not astonished. Security issues were part of the [report](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/opp-identifies-security-lapses-in-report-on-parliament-hill-shooting/article23606573/). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/376 "2015-04-03T15:34:30Z")
> [@computergeek](#): > > Did anyone in Canada feel the security forces weren’t justified in killing the guy? Did the police really have to justify their actions? I would think they would be focused on whether there was enough security Of course the RCMP must, procedurally, go through the process of confirming, if a human being is shot to death, that it was justifiable, but of course they were going to and this isn’t really a news story worth reporting. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/377 "2015-04-03T15:38:59Z")
> [@computergeek](#): > > Did anyone in Canada feel the security forces weren’t justified in killing the guy? Did the police really have to justify their actions? I would think they would be focused on whether there was enough security I would investigate to determine if they used enough bullets. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/378 "2015-04-03T15:42:52Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I would investigate to determine if they used enough bullets. If you do it right, you only need one. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/379 "2015-04-03T15:48:31Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If you do it right, you only need one. I suppose in Canada that’s enough. Not in America, though. Every cop within a quarter mile has to empty his gun – it’s mandatory. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-parliament-attacked/702149/380 "2015-04-03T23:05:01Z")
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