# Canadian Prime blames U.S. for 9/11 attacks.... WTF!? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 13, 2002, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310 "2002-09-13T16:38:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/21 "2002-09-14T01:45:49Z")
**fluiddruid** stated: > [@](#): > > We are not being attacked by senseless, evil demons who only wish to see suffering and wish to destroy Truth, Freedom, and the American Way. We are being attacked by people, misguided and callous as they might be, with real motivations that are based in (real or perceived) wrongs committed by the American government. Please indicate to me what wrongs the United States government committed that offended Osama Bin Laden. Please indicate to me any different policies the United Stated government could have pursued that would have _definitively_ ensured no Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups would see them as a target. Aside from “we should have shot the fucker years ago” or “we should have invaded Afghanistan, Iran, Algeria, and all those other fucking theocracies and destroyed their governments.” I am amazed at the number of people who think that Osama could have been mollified by any action other than A) killing him or B) handing all of the Middle East over to him for him to rule as he saw fit. Or have you not read his screeds on what he wants? He, and his followers, are not fighting for Palestine. Not a blip was said about an independent Palestinian state until well **after** 9/11. He is fighting to have us out of Saudi Arabia, so that he can overthrow the government there with impunity and establish his own Islamic government in the mode of Iran and the Taliban. Is that, on any level, somehow acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/22 "2002-09-14T02:15:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Please indicate to me what wrongs the United States government committed that offended Osama Bin Laden. **John** , um… what the fuck? First, it’s a matter of record which _perceived_ “wrongs” of the US ObL claims as justification. (Emphasis added so you won’t blithely ignore the “perceived” part this time.) As you know, because you _answered your own damn question in your second paragraph._ It’s also a matter of genuine debate even among US citizens whether specific past actions of the US were wrong. Additionally, it’s pretty well accepted that al Qaeda aren’t the only terrorist group who target America. Second, please indicate where **fluiddruid** (or for that matter Mr. Chretien) stated or even implied that different US policies would have “definitively” ensured we wouldn’t be targeted. Please also indicate where **fluiddruid** or Chretien advocated “mollification” of ObL. Lastly, please show where either of the aforementioned ever indicated that ObL’s actions, philosophies or goals are “acceptable”. And if you can’t show those things, I have to ask who the hell you think you’re “correcting”? ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/23 "2002-09-14T04:21:21Z")
[sub](This is my favorite part of a Pit thread, when it’s just starting to heat up…)[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/24 "2002-09-14T04:37:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Corrado \* > Please indicate to me what wrongs the United States government committed that offended Osama Bin Laden. Please indicate to me any different policies the United Stated government could have pursued that would have _definitively_ ensured no Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups would see them as a target. \*\* In no way did I state, nor do I believe, that the responsibility belongs to the US to appease all potential terrorists, nor that it is indeed possible to do so. I merely said that there are reasons for terrorism, and that understanding them would be beneficial to the US. It is clear that bin Laden has a beef with the U.S. Government. See [here](http://www.adl.org/terrorism_america/bin_l.asp): > [@](#): > > May 1997 - During an interview with CNN, bin Laden reaffirms his call for a holy war against Americans. “We have focused our declaration of jihad on the U.S. soldiers inside Arabia…The U.S. government has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal through its support of the Israeli occupation of Palestine.” Obviously, this does not mean we need to change our foreign policy to appease anyone. However, there are a lot more terrorists beyond bin Laden and beyond Al-Qaida. I am not suggesting we deserve to have civilians killed, but would it not make sense to consider that our own actions do have an effect on terrorism? (I disagree, however, that the issue with Al-Qaida terrorists is about wealth. I will say, however, that anti-American sentiment as a whole is clearly connected to this issue.) > [@](#): > > **Aside from “we should have shot the fucker years ago” or "we should have invaded Afghanistan, Iran, Algeria, and all those other fucking theocracies and destroyed their governments."** I would never say such a thing. Do I sound like Ann Coulter? \*\* > [@](#): > > I am amazed at the number of people who think that Osama could have been mollified by any action other than A) killing him or B) handing all of the Middle East over to him for him to rule as he saw fit. Or have you not read his screeds on what he wants?\*\* Please read my post. Did I refer specifically to Osama bin Laden? No. There are a lot of terrorists out there with a lot of reasons that are not merely extreme fundamentalism or megalomania. \*\* > [@](#): > > He, and his followers, are not fighting for Palestine. Not a blip was said about an independent Palestinian state until well **after** 9/11. \*\* Interesting, but irrelevant. \*\* > [@](#): > > He is fighting to have us out of Saudi Arabia, so that he can overthrow the government there with impunity and establish his own Islamic government in the mode of Iran and the Taliban. > Is that, on any level, somehow acceptable? \*\* Obviously not. That’s why I said > [@](#): > > \*\*am tired of every person who speaks openly about the causes of 9/11 having their roots in American behavior being crucified. This is not to say that American civilians deserved to be killed, nor that America is to blame for the actions of terrorists, but rather that, objectively, there are reasons why America was attacked and not some other country…We are being attacked by people, misguided and callous as they might be, with real motivations that are based in (real or perceived) wrongs committed by the American government. Does that justify killing thousands of civilians? Of course not. \*\* Yours is exactly the sort of opinion that I find troubling. You have simplified and twisted my argument into a nonsensical straw man to try to portray me as anti-American, or (oddly, considering what I said) pro-bin Laden. Neither is the case. I simply think that in considering terrorism as a whole that we do need to consider US foreign policy as cause, not just as something we change to combat terrorism directly. I object to the US war on terrorism being portrayed as war against evil itself and war against those who hate freedom and all that is good and true in the world. It is warhawk rhetoric and I am tired of it. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/25 "2002-09-14T05:13:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGauss \* > \*\* > > I see. Osama Bin Laden must have been raised in squalor and his childhood must have been one of utter deprivation. \*\* Osama bin Laden would have a hard time carrying out his terrorist activities as a one-man crusade. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/26 "2002-09-14T05:21:19Z")
Quite right. He would require the cooperation of nineteen disaffected middle class sympathizers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/27 "2002-09-14T06:35:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fluiddruid \* > Obviously, this does not mean we need to change our foreign policy to appease anyone. However, there are a lot more terrorists beyond bin Laden and beyond Al-Qaida. I am not suggesting we deserve to have civilians killed, but would it not make sense to consider that our own actions do have an effect on terrorism? To what point? If we accept that our foreign policy causes terrorist attacks against us, we must either change that policy to prevent the attacks- in which case, we allow our policy to be dictated by terrorism- or we make no changes at all, in which case knowing what effects our actions have makes no difference. The best policy would be to make a standard review of our Middle East policy as we should with all of our policies. But if we “know” terrorists will attack us because of this, or that, then we box ourselves into a corner because any action we take seems to be driven by the terrorists- again, letting them “win”. Ergo, it is actually best for us not to give any shit whatsoever to what terrorists think. > [@](#): > > Yours is exactly the sort of opinion that I find troubling. You have simplified and twisted my argument into a nonsensical straw man to try to portray me as anti-American, or (oddly, considering what I said) pro-bin Laden. If you think that’s my opinion or what I was trying to do, then you’re an idiot. You stated that there was a need to understand the motives of bin Laden in order to help stop the rising tide of anti-Americanism. I am trying to show you that “bin Laden” and “rising tide of anti-Americanism” are about as closely linked as “SPAM” and “filet mignon”. While they both might arguably be called meat products, if I find a roach in my SPAM, it won’t put me off of filet mignon. Look at that website you linked to. Bid Laden makes two references to Israel, true. But most of his screed is about the U.S. having placed troops in Saudi Arabia and refusing to let the government be overthrown. Are you saying that most Arabs are pissed off because we support the Saudi regime? That we don’t allow more countries to be turned into theocracies? I’ve heard very few people attempt to argue that; most Arabs seem to be pissed off because of our suppot of Israel and our refusal to send even more economic aid their way. bin Laden is, very simply, a man with his _own_ mission, one unrelating to average Arab sympathies. I believe we should understand why the average Arab dislikes the United States and cheers when we are attacked. I believe that we should not bother to understand why terrorists dislike us- once they have decided to kill innocents to draw attention to their cause or suffering to their enemies, we cannot react in policy in any way without seeming to let them determine that policy. > [@](#): > > Neither is the case. I simply think that in considering terrorism as a whole that we do need to consider US foreign policy as cause, not just as something we change to combat terrorism directly. Again, you have yet to show any rational reason _why_ understanding terrorists’ motives makes any difference. > [@](#): > > I object to the US war on terrorism being portrayed as war against evil itself and war against those who hate freedom and all that is good and true in the world. It is warhawk rhetoric and I am tired of it. Well, sorry, Bunky, but it **is** a war against evil people, because I can’t find another way to describe someone who would kill 3000 civilians just to send a message. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/28 "2002-09-14T10:02:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > I think there’s a difference between assigning blame to the U.S. and being able to objectively look at causation. I’m agreeing. (As per the OP) Jean Chretien, 17th July: > [@](#): > > “And I do think the Western world is getting too rich in relation to the poor world and necessarily, you know, we’re looked upon as being arrogant, self-satisfied greedy and with no limits. And September 11 is an occasion for me to realize it even more” George Bush, 12 September at the UN: > [@](#): > > "Our commitment to human dignity is challenged by persistent poverty and raging disease. The suffering is great. And our responsibilities are clear. The United States \*\*is joining \*\*with the world to supply aid where it reaches people and lifts up lives, to extend trade and the prosperity it brings, and to bring medical care where it is desperately needed. \*\*As a symbol of our commitment to human dignity. The United States will return to UNESCO. \*\* > > This organization has been reformed, and America **will** participate fully in its mission to advance human rights and tolerance and learning. Our common security is challenged by regional conflicts, ethnic and religious strife that is ancient, but not inevitable." - Aren’t they agreeing ? Where’s the problem ? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/29 "2002-09-14T13:39:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Corrado \* > \*\ ***fluiddruid** stated: > > He is fighting to have us out of Saudi Arabia, so that he can overthrow the government there with impunity and establish his own Islamic government in the mode of Iran and the Taliban. > > \*\* If the government of Saudi Arabia was replaced with a Iran-like governement, it would be a major improvment… Did you just poorly expressed your mind, or do you genuinely believe the Iranian government is worst that the Saudi governement? If I were to choose between these two countries, I would become Iranian in a heartbeat… ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/30 "2002-09-14T13:44:43Z")
I agree with what he said. We are insufferably well off relative to a lot of the our earth-mates. Our biggest problem a few months ago was whether Gary Condit was going to seek re-election while other people on this planet do not have fresh water or adequate sewage systems, let alone food to eat. Think about that. Yes, we (and I include a lot of Western Europe here) ARE rich enough to be nice. We are growing richer, fatter, and more removed from the rest of the world. And the people on the “other” side of the tracks are beginning to resent it. By doing nothing to help them, we are figuratively telling the poorest people that they can eat cake. Have you SEEN how the Afghanis live? Do you care how AIDS has ravished Africa? The you have any idea how desperate Venezulans are right now? Revolutions are created when the balance is tipped so that one class feels so oppressed, so forgotten, so desperate that they are willing to DIE to change it. Just about every day in the Middle East, someone straps a bomb on himself and blows himself to smithereens in order to try and precipitate a change. Why? The key to “winning the war on terror” is understanding the why. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/31 "2002-09-14T13:57:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Corrado \* > \*\*Aside from “we should have shot the fucker years ago” or “we should have invaded Afghanistan, Iran, \*\* Algeria \*\*, and all those other fucking theocracies and destroyed their governments.” > \*\* Bolding mine Since when is Algeria a “theocracy”??? The algerian government has been struggling against Islamic terrorism for a long time. Some years ago, they even asked for an organized fight at the international level against this brand of terrorism. Needless to say, nobody was interested, since it was long before the 9/11… Following your comment about Iran/Saudi, I begin to suspect you’re clueless about the issues you’re discussing…The Algerian government is more or less as supportive of islamism fundamentalism as Bush is. FWIW, I’m extremely irritated by people even remotely suggesting that Algeria should be attacked. It’s barely better in my book than suggesting attacking the UK, Spain or somesuch… ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/32 "2002-09-14T15:17:40Z")
Remember, “our freedoms” had nothing to do with motivating the terrorists. The lefties logically base their beliefs on the fact that many Islamic dictatorships and monarchies share the same freedoms that we do. [sub]Oh, they don’t? Not even close? Consistently repressive, really? Oops. You go, **Karl Gauss**. The facts may not help you, political ideology is on the line.[/sub] **PunditLisa** > [@](#): > > By doing nothing to help them, Ah. There is no excuse for this statement in the Information Age. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/33 "2002-09-14T15:28:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*Remember, “our freedoms” had nothing to do with motivating the terrorists. The lefties logically base their beliefs on the fact that many Islamic dictatorships and monarchies share the same freedoms that we do. > [sub]Oh, they don’t? Not even close? Consistently repressive, really? Oops. You go, **Karl Gauss**. The facts may not help you, political ideology is on the line.[/sub] > **PunditLisa** Ah. There is no excuse for this statement in the Information Age. \*\* Huh? Please explain why I should go. I hope you’re mixing me up with someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/34 "2002-09-14T15:52:47Z")
If you are not whooshing me, I’ll be glad to explain: “You go” = I agree with your points. “The facts may not help you,” as in you are right about the majority of the al Qaeda terrorists being pretty well off. Problem is, these are inconvenient facts for folks who channel everything through an economic determinism prism. [Oprah]You go, Karl Gaussl![/O] See, all better. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/35 "2002-09-14T17:28:30Z")
How many times must we have this debate? Curtailing the wave of anti-American sentiment in the world, to the extent that we can = good. And, for the most part, it is only a matter of providing accurate information to counter misinformation. To the extent that the anti-American sentiment is nothing more than jealousy and desire to see the guy on top hurting? Well, there’s not an awful lot we can do about that, now, is there? Tying all of the above, in any way, to the atrocity that was 9/11 is asinine. READ. WHAT. BIN LADEN. SAYS. fluiddruid: > [@](#): > > \*\*In no way did I state, nor do I believe, that the responsibility belongs to the US to appease all potential terrorists, nor that it is indeed possible to do so. I merely said that there are reasons for terrorism, and that understanding them would be beneficial to the US. \*\* OK, we now know the reasons ObL attacked us. We shouldn’t have a single soldier in the Middle East. We should hate Jews. We should abandon Israel to the dogs. We are infidels. Now what? We’ve done what you wanted. Will you shut up now? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/36 "2002-09-14T22:42:15Z")
> [@](#): > > How many times must we have this debate? Just once without kneejerk reactions to criticism of America would be nice. > [@](#): > > Curtailing the wave of anti-American sentiment in the world, to the extent that we can = good. **True** > [@](#): > > And, for the most part, it is only a matter of providing accurate information to counter misinformation. **False** Good communication is only a small part of it. For the most part, it’s an incredibly difficult matter of doing everything we can militarily and economically to make violent political expression ineffective and costly to the perpetrators, and doing everything we can politically and economically to make non-violent political expression more effective. > [@](#): > > Tying all of the above, in any way, to the atrocity that was 9/11 is asinine. READ. WHAT. BIN LADEN. SAYS. READ. WHAT. THE PEOPLE YOU’RE SHRIEKING AT. HAVE. ACTUALLY. WRITTEN. > [@](#): > > OK, we now know the reasons ObL attacked us. We shouldn’t have a single soldier in the Middle East. We should hate Jews. We should abandon Israel to the dogs. We are infidels. No, no, no. That scarecrow don’t hardly look _real_ enough to work, Farmer **Milo**. You can do much better. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/37 "2002-09-14T22:56:34Z")
Here’s a little trick I learned: Think of Jean Chretien as being your drunk stupid uncle who always embarrasses you when you’re in public with him. The man is an embarassment to Canada. He’s destroyed the military while buying himself twin executive jets. He never saw a job that wasn’t suitable for a crony. He has ZERO principles. Right now he’s twisting around trying to latch on to something that will leave a ‘legacy’, which is why he’s becoming more public and embarassing us all even further. The only reason Chretien is in power is because the opposition self-destructed in an orgy of infighting and regional stupidity. Until a viable opposition party rises up to add a voice to the nonexistent political debate in Canada, just think of us as a banana republic. When Chretien says something stupid, just apologize for him and hope everyone forgets what he said. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/38 "2002-09-14T23:32:40Z")
Go here for the [video](http://media.cbc.ca:8080/ramgen/newsworld/clips/rm-lo/mansbridge_chretien020911.rm) of Cretien’s statement. One should listen to it prior to commenting on what he said. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/39 "2002-09-14T23:49:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xenophon41 \* > \*\*No, no, no. That scarecrow don’t hardly look _real_ enough to work, Farmer **Milo**. You can do much better. \*\* So **Xeno** , you disagree with Milo’s reasons for why OBL attacked us. Care to share your reasons why he did? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310/40 "2002-09-15T02:31:04Z")
Oh Jesus, I am losing faith in humanity. Usually I believe both sides of an argument always have merit and should be looked at. In this case one side is absolutely wrong. This is the side who slanders Chretien rather than discussing his points. This is the side who calls the 9/11 bombers “Middle-Class”. They had a documentary on the leader of the group on A&E and he was FAR from middle-class. This is the side that says it’s all jealousy. This is the side that says it’s absolutely wrong to imply that there was any sort of causation. Well, you guy’s are fucking idiots.\* Well, let’s look at power dynamics. We are the powerful nations (the west) and the United States is the most powerful nation out of those nations. Our power derives from the hegemony we have over the world. Our standard of living is derived from our ability to keep costs down in other countries. We put our own needs first, and in any relationship, needs of one will often come in conflict with the other. This is a NATURAL aspect of a relationship. However, you are denying this aspect in this particular instance. You must have a give and take, because we are more powerful we take more often than not. This doesn’t mean that _I_ feel guilt and feel that we DESERVED to be attacked. It just means that I realize that the “other” guy, had a perfectly well thought out reason for attacking us, that I am not going to just label as jealousy to avoid thinking too hard about the subject. We may never have changed bin Laden’s mind. That is possibly an immutable fact, and I am willing to reasonably accept that it IS in fact an immutable fact. However, there are hundreds of thousands of people to pull from in these middle eastern nations who would like nothing better than to see Rome burn. I can accept this. I can accept that the enemy does not like us, and that they have legitimate reasons for not liking us. What I can also accept is the concept that we could possibly change our behavior to have a better relationship with these people. I believe that there is no grouping of 100s of thousands of people who would ever choose to hate irrationally, at least not in the day and age of mass communication. I don’t think it’s pure jealousy. There are many nations that are in poverty that DO NOT attack us. We aren’t hated by EVERY nation that is in poverty, but we ARE hated by the nations in the Middle East, there must be something that seperates them from other impoverished nations. Yes religion is a factor, but it’s a scapegoat that is too easy. From the little I know about the crusades, even they had a political motivation, fear of the Ottoman Empire. I don’t think it’s so much jealousy as it is fear. I think there may be a combination of both, however I believe it’s more fear. Why do they fear us? Well a look at CNN or [Worldnews.com](http://Worldnews.com) will answer that question. I do not believe this is a question of wrong or right. Liberal or Conservative. This is a matter of pure psychology. Why do they hate us? What is their motivation? Do they have legitimate gripes? If so, what are they? When we find out what they are do we choose to change our methods? You can look at this logically, which is what I think Chretien has done. I invite you to look up the difference between the definition of Reason and Excuse next time you enter into this particular debate. No one is trying to excuse their behavior, we are trying to reason it so that it can be avoided in the future. The battle lines have been drawn and they ARE the enemy. How we deal with the enemy decides whether the objectives will be completed. Erek \*There should be some kind of Godwin’s law that says that you lose an argument anytime you say “Those lefties” or “Those righties” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-prime-blames-u-s-for-9-11-attacks-wtf/128310.md?page=3)