# Canadian Senate - can Senate appointments be reversed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 14, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118 "2008-12-14T15:25:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/1 "2008-12-14T15:25:39Z")
A question raised by some of the possible outcomes of [Stephen Harper’s potential Senate appointments.](http://www.thestar.com/article/552604)If he were to make these appointments, and if the Coalition were to defeat the Conservatives when prorogation is finished, could those Senate appointments be reversed or not? I’m not interested in debating the Prime Minister’s ethical position, I’m just interested in the facts of this situation. Any one out there familiar with that part of the rules? I sure ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/2 "2008-12-14T15:45:58Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > A question raised by some of the possible outcomes of [Stephen Harper’s potential Senate appointments.](http://www.thestar.com/article/552604)If he were to make these appointments, and if the Coalition were to defeat the Conservatives when prorogation is finished, could those Senate appointments be reversed or not? I’m not interested in debating the Prime Minister’s ethical position, I’m just interested in the facts of this situation. Any one out there familiar with that part of the rules? I sure ain’t. Short answer: No. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/3 "2008-12-14T20:33:36Z")
Can you elaborate? There was a Senator in 1998 who was away in Mexico on a semi-permanent vacation, and if I recall correctly, nothing could be done to remove him from the Senate. And, of course, when Brian Mulroney added members to the Senate in 1990, there was nothing anyone could do about it. It was slightly different then, as Parliament was in session and the PCs had a majority government. Again, without wanting to draw us into the debate over what the Prime Minister should or should not do, I’m curious to know if there is anything that can be done to counter his appointments. Can the GG block the appointments? Can the Red Chamber refuse to swear them in? Is there absolutely nothing anyone can do about it? My perusal of the Senate rules isn’t turning up anything conclusive in this situation… I’d prefer to have chapter and verse, or at least precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/4 "2008-12-14T21:43:52Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Can you elaborate? There was a Senator in 1998 who was away in Mexico on a semi-permanent vacation, and if I recall correctly, nothing could be done to remove him from the Senate. No doubt it’s all spelled out in the appropriate Act (Constitution Act?), but the Wiki article on the [Canadian Senate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_senate) gives some examples of situations in which a Senator’s seat becomes vacant: > [@](#): > > A senator’s seat automatically becomes vacant if he or she fails to attend the Senate for two consecutive parliamentary sessions. Furthermore, a senator loses his or her seat if they are found guilty of treason, indictable offence, or any “infamous crime”; is declared bankrupt or insolvent; or ceases to be qualified. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/5 "2008-12-15T04:07:45Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Can the GG block the appointments? No - because it’s not the Prime Minister who makes the appointment, but the GovGen, on the advice of the Prime Minister. The GovGen of course always follows the PM’s advice except in the most unusual circumstances. See the [Constitution Act, 1867](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/c1867_e.html#legislative), s. 24: > [@](#): > > \*\*Summons of Senator > > 24.\*\* The Governor General shall from Time to Time, in the Queen’s Name, by Instrument under the Great Seal of Canada, summon qualified Persons to the Senate; and, subject to the Provisions of this Act, every Person so summoned shall become and be a Member of the Senate and a Senator. [QUOTE=Le Ministre de l’au-delà] Can the Red Chamber refuse to swear them in? [/QUOTE] No, as s. 24 makes clear - once summoned by the GovGen, the person is a member of the Senate. The Senate has no control over the appointment. [QUOTE=Le Ministre de l’au-delà] Is there absolutely nothing anyone can do about it? [/QUOTE] Other than establishing a coalition to try to bring down the government before the appointments can be made 🙂 , nope. Of course, individual senators may cease to be senators pursuant to s. 31: > [@](#): > > \*\*Disqualification of Senators > > 31.\*\* The Place of a Senator shall become vacant in any of the following Cases: > > (1) If for Two consecutive Sessions of the Parliament he fails to give his Attendance in the Senate: > > (2) If he takes an Oath or makes a Declaration or Acknowledgment of Allegiance, Obedience, or Adherence to a Foreign Power, or does an Act whereby he becomes a Subject or Citizen, or entitled to the Rights or Privileges of a Subject or Citizen, of a Foreign Power: > > (3) If he is adjudged Bankrupt or Insolvent, or applies for the Benefit of any Law relating to Insolvent Debtors, or becomes a public Defaulter: > > (4) If he is attainted of Treason or convicted of Felony or of any infamous Crime: > > (5) If he ceases to be qualified in respect of Property or of Residence; provided, that a Senator shall not be deemed to have ceased to be qualified in respect of Residence by reason only of his residing at the Seat of the Government of Canada while holding an Office under that Government requiring his Presence there. but you’ll note that the list doesn’t include “appointed by Prime Minister Harper.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/6 "2008-12-15T06:49:56Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > And, of course, when Brian Mulroney added members to the Senate in 1990, there was nothing anyone could do about it. It was slightly different then, as Parliament was in session and the PCs had a majority government. I think adding members to the Senate in this fashion is a prerogative of the Crown, but unlike other prerogatives, exerced by the Queen (under the advice of the prime minister) directly and not by the Governor General. I’ve checked and this is spelled in section 26 of the Constitution Act, 1867. From **Northern Piper** ’s link: > [@Constitution Act](#): > > If at any Time on the Recommendation of the Governor General the Queen thinks fit to direct that Four or Eight Members be added to the Senate, the Governor General may by Summons to Four or Eight qualified Persons (as the Case may be), representing equally the Four Divisions of Canada, add to the Senate accordingly. I do have another question. In most cases, legislatures have the right to control membership in them by refusing to seat or expelling members. But apparently, once named by the Governor General, senators take their seat immediately. Does the Senate have the right to expel members? How about the House of Commons? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/7 "2008-12-15T17:42:11Z")
Could the Constitution Act be amended to provide for the removal of Senators? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/8 "2008-12-15T18:05:02Z")
It _could_ be amended to provide for _anything_, but I don’t think there’s any political will to amend the Canadian constitution in any way. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/9 "2008-12-15T18:18:53Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I think adding members to the Senate in this fashion is a prerogative of the Crown, but unlike other prerogatives, exerced by the Queen (under the advice of the prime minister) directly and not by the Governor General. It is a power of the Crown, but technically, it is not a prerogative power. Prerogative powers normally refer to the powers of the Crown that are defined by the common law and the unwritten portions. The power to appoint additional Senators is spelled out in the _Constitution Act, 1867_, as you mentioned, so it’s not considered a prerogative power. But you’re quite right that this is a power that the Queen exercises, not the Gov Gen. When PM Mulroney added the extra Senators using this clause, he gave the advice directly to Her Majesty, who then issued the appointments on that advice. [QUOTE=Hypnagogic Jerk] I do have another question. In most cases, legislatures have the right to control membership in them by refusing to seat or expelling members. But apparently, once named by the Governor General, senators take their seat immediately. Does the Senate have the right to expel members? How about the House of Commons? [/QUOTE] I can’t recall any cases where a Senator was expelled, but my initial reaction is that expulsion could only be for the grounds listed in s. 31. Otherwise, if the Prime Minister’s party has a majority in the Senate, what’s to stop the majority from expelling all members of other parties and letting the PM advise the GovGen to appoint his party members to all the vacancies, gaining 100% control of the Senate for his party? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/10 "2008-12-15T18:35:48Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Could the Constitution Act be amended to provide for the removal of Senators? Yes, s. 38 of the [Constitution Act, 1982](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/annex_e.html#V) is the general amending power, and s. 42 provides that any amendments to the Senate must be done under s. 38: [QUOTE=Constitution Act, 1982] \*\*_General procedure for amending Constitution of Canada 38._ (1) An amendment to the Constitution of Canada may be made by proclamation issued by the Governor General under the Great Seal of Canada where so authorized by (a) resolutions of the Senate and House of Commons; and (b) resolutions of the legislative assemblies of at least two-thirds of the provinces that have, in the aggregate, according to the then latest general census, at least fifty per cent of the population of all the provinces. … **_Amendment by general procedure_ 42.** (1) An amendment to the Constitution of Canada in relation to the following matters may be made only in accordance with subsection 38(1): … (b) the powers of the Senate and the method of selecting Senators; [/QUOTE] As **Hypnogogic Jerk** comments, just because the power is there does not mean there is any appetite to use it at the current time. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/11 "2008-12-15T18:48:22Z")
> [@](#): > > A senator’s seat automatically becomes vacant if he or she fails to attend the Senate for two consecutive parliamentary sessions. Furthermore, a senator loses his or her seat if they are found guilty of treason, indictable offence, or any “infamous crime”; **is declared bankrupt or insolvent** ; or ceases to be qualified. I find the part I bolded to be interesting. How often has that come into play, and is it absolute? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/12 "2008-12-15T19:02:13Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > It is a power of the Crown, but technically, it is not a prerogative power. Prerogative powers normally refer to the powers of the Crown that are defined by the common law and the unwritten portions. Ah, I did not know that. Thanks. > [@](#): > > I can’t recall any cases where a Senator was expelled, but my initial reaction is that expulsion could only be for the grounds listed in s. 31. Otherwise, if the Prime Minister’s party has a majority in the Senate, what’s to stop the majority from expelling all members of other parties and letting the PM advise the GovGen to appoint his party members to all the vacancies, gaining 100% control of the Senate for his party? Many legislatures do have the possibility to refuse to seat or expel members. I think it’s the case with the House of Representatives in the US. As for why they do not use this power to expel all representatives from the minority party, I guess they know it would be totally politically unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/13 "2008-12-15T20:31:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Yes, s. 38 of the [Constitution Act, 1982](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/annex_e.html#V) is the general amending power, and s. 42 provides that any amendments to the Senate must be done under s. 38: > As **Hypnogogic Jerk** comments, just because the power is there does not mean there is any appetite to use it at the current time. OK. I guess the point of my question was whether the amending process involved more than an ordinary majority vote in the Commons, and this makes clear that it does. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/14 "2008-12-15T23:00:59Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > As for why they do not use this power to expel all representatives from the minority party, I guess they know it would be totally politically unacceptable. Exactly - but Senators are never up for election, so that check would not be present. The Commons does have that power, but if it were to misuse it, that would be an issue at election time. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/15 "2008-12-15T23:07:19Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I can’t recall any cases where a Senator was expelled, but my initial reaction is that expulsion could only be for the grounds listed in s. 31. I think the closest the Senate came to expelling anyone was in the case of Andrew Thompson. It did suspend him, and then he resigned. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/16 "2008-12-16T03:39:01Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think the closest the Senate came to expelling anyone was in the case of Andrew Thompson. It did suspend him, and then he resigned. Thank you, **Captain Amazing**! I’ve been struggling for two days to come up with that name so I could look up the particulars of that Senate scandal. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadian-senate-can-senate-appointments-be-reversed/477118/17 "2008-12-16T04:02:50Z")
Could the Senate ask the GG to expel a senator? [Information archivée dans le Web | Information Archived on the Web](http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/MR-e/mr126-e.pdf)