# Canadians: any updates on Col. Russell Williams? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 15, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795 "2010-09-15T01:53:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/101 "2010-12-10T17:49:09Z")
What distinguishes him from other jailed psychopaths? ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/102 "2010-12-10T17:53:47Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > Just putting it out there, but does anyone feel that Col. (now Mr.) Williams should be under psychiatric care instead of in prison? The guy obviously has some serious mental issues. Would it even be worth it? Not worth it. The man is a confirmed preditor. He doesn’t just have a bit of a bed-wetting problem, nor a garden-variety neurosis, nor even a medicable disorder. He’s a hunter, a destroyer, one whom gloried in the kill. In fact, he’s _precisely_ the kind of guy whom the State could justly execute: He’s guilty beyond _anyone’s_ doubt, he’s absolutely a menace, and there’s no chance of recovering him as a useful and productive citizen. Instead, he’ll be warehoused at State (taxpayer) expense until he dies. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/103 "2010-12-10T20:13:04Z")
Throwing this out to the Canadian lawyer Dopers - isn’t there an obligation by the state to prove that Williams couldn’t differentiate right and wrong when he committed the crimes to qualify for being remanded to a psychiatric institute? An example of this that I’m thinking of is [Vincent Li, the guy who decapitated a fellow traveller on a Greyhound bus,](http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20090304/bus_verdict_090305/) who was found not criminally responsible for the beheading. Otherwise, you did the crimes, you do the time. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/104 "2010-12-10T20:16:02Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Throwing this out to the Canadian lawyer Dopers - isn’t there an obligation by the state to prove that Williams couldn’t differentiate right and wrong when he committed the crimes to qualify for being remanded to a psychiatric institute? An example of this that I’m thinking of is [Vincent Li, the guy who decapitated a fellow traveller on a Greyhound bus,](http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20090304/bus_verdict_090305/) who was found not criminally responsible for the beheading. Otherwise, you did the crimes, you do the time. Perhaps the Canadian system is different - but in the American system, a defense that the accused is not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect is an “affirmative” defense - the burden is on the defense to proof the requisite level of mental illness. Of course, the burden of proof on all other aspects of the case remains with the prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/105 "2010-12-10T21:52:22Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Perhaps the Canadian system is different - but in the American system, a defense that the accused is not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect is an “affirmative” defense - the burden is on the defense to proof the requisite level of mental illness. Of course, the burden of proof on all other aspects of the case remains with the prosecution. It’s pretty much the same in Canada. The key is s. 16 of the _Criminal Code of Canada_. Generally, a person cannot be held responsible for a crime if they were suffering from a mental disorder (s. 16(1)), but it is always presumed that the person was sane at the time of the crime (s. 16(2)); however, the burden of proof in demonstrating mental illness at the time is on the defense (s. 16(3)). To do this, the defense must show that because of the disorder, the accused could not appreciate the nature of the act and had no idea that it was wrongful (s. 16(1) again). Vincent Li fit the parameters. I don’t think Williams could–he seemed to know what he was doing; and given that his regular job was as a CF colonel, an insanity defense would be difficult to establish. “Mr. Defense Lawyer, are you really trying to persuade the Court that we put our fighting men and women and all their armaments in the hands of a madman who had simply been acting sane for twenty years?” No … I don’t think it would work. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/106 "2010-12-22T13:34:36Z")
Ex-Col. Williams’ wife wants to become his ex-wife: [http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2010/12/22/16641626.html](http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2010/12/22/16641626.html) > [@](#): > > Russell Williams’ wife is filing for divorce, according to reports. > > The National Post reported Wednesday morning Mary Elizabeth Harriman has asked a court to keep her divorce proceedings private and prevent the media from reporting on it. > > Harriman’s Ottawa lawyer, Mary Jane Binks, told Postmedia News the wife of the the convicted killer, “she does not want the undue attention” on her divorce. Binks filed an affidavit last week in an Ottawa courthouse asking for documents to be sealed in the case. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/107 "2010-12-22T13:40:43Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > What distinguishes him from other jailed psychopaths? As mentioned in the article linked to at [post 68](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13054417&postcount=68), at least one psych guy doesn’t think Williams meets the profile of a psychopath: > [@](#): > > Based on reports from court, Booth said Williams has a mental illness and surmises he probably had fantasies involving wearing women’s clothes since he was a teenager. He said stress and health issues could have triggered a change in his behaviour and led to him acting on those fantasies. > … > While Williams has the demeanour of a psychopath – leading a double-life as a successful military man, chewing gum and confessing his crimes as a soldier might recall a completed mission, not showing any emotion in court. But Booth said he is not a psychopath. > > “There is no psychopathy,” he said, referring to a scoring system to determine such a diagnosis. > > “You need a score of 30 on a scale of 40 and he’s only a 16-17,” adding he lacks factors such as antisocial behaviour and anger. > … > “Somebody with (Williams’ desires) had treatment options. He should have sought help and this wouldn’t have happened.” ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/108 "2010-12-22T14:14:28Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > \ given that his regular job was as a CF colonel, an insanity defense would be difficult to establish. “Mr. Defense Lawyer, are you really trying to persuade the Court that we put our fighting men and women and all their armaments in the hands of a madman who had simply been acting sane for twenty years?” No … I don’t think it would work. I would think his career would make an insanity defense difficult in a lot of ways. 🙂 And, chewing gum makes you a psychopath now? I chew gum all the time! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/109 "2010-12-22T15:09:06Z")
context is everything: > [@](#): > > chewing gum and confessing his crimes as a soldier might recall a completed mission I’m assuming you’ve not done the former while also doing the latter? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/110 "2010-12-22T15:26:43Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > As mentioned in the article linked to at [post 68](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13054417&postcount=68), at least one psych guy doesn’t think Williams meets the profile of a psychopath: > [@](#): > > Based on reports from court, Booth said Williams has a mental illness and surmises he probably had fantasies involving wearing women’s clothes since he was a teenager. He said stress and health issues could have triggered a change in his behaviour and led to him acting on those fantasies. > … > While Williams has the demeanour of a psychopath – leading a double-life as a successful military man, chewing gum and confessing his crimes as a soldier might recall a completed mission, not showing any emotion in court. But Booth said he is not a psychopath. > > “There is no psychopathy,” he said, referring to a scoring system to determine such a diagnosis. > > “You need a score of 30 on a scale of 40 and he’s only a 16-17,” adding he lacks factors such as antisocial behaviour and anger. The score the guy’s talking about is the [Hare Psychopathy Checklist revised](http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hare-Psychopathy-Checklist.html), or PCL-R. The reasons he didn’t score too high on the PCL-R are largely the same reasons why everyone is so surprised by him in general - he doesn’t fit the type. Just a cursory look shows that many of items that the PCL-R looks for are completely absent in Col. Williams: no irresponsibility, no criminally versatile history, no juvenile delinquency, no lack of realistic long term goals, and so on. He’s a totally sex-obsessed violent weirdo, but strangely enough probably not a prototypically psychopathic one (as opposed to, say, Ted Bundy). ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/111 "2010-12-22T15:55:17Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > **And, in the “What took you so long?” category:** > > Ex-Col. Williams’ wife wants to become his ex-wife: RE: “What took you so long?”… In Ontario the legal grounds for ending a marriage are A) one year’s separation (no fault divorce) or B) adultery, cruelty etc. Now his wife could totally opt for B, of course, but to do so before the one-year separation deadline means bringing an action to court and offering him the chance to disprove her allegations of adultery and/or cruelty. So it’s probably simply preferable to her to avoid the circus that would undoubtedly ensue and quietly wait until they’ve been living apart for one year. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/112 "2010-12-22T16:12:20Z")
but they’ve not been living apart for a year, have they? news reports indicate that she only broke up with him once he was arrested last February. oh, and the grounds for divorce are standard across the country, as it’s a matter of federal law, not Ontario law. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/113 "2010-12-22T16:16:48Z")
Strikes me that getting a divorce is a bit of a technicality at this point, so no wonder it’s an afterthought. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/114 "2010-12-22T19:00:24Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > but they’ve not been living apart for a year, have they? news reports indicate that she only broke up with him once he was arrested last February. Assuming that the breakup last February really was a breakup, she can get the paperwork started now, indicating “date of separation” as last February. And then this coming February, the year of separation will be complete, the paperwork will be ready, and there should be no problem with the divorce happening fairly quickly and easily. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/115 "2010-12-23T04:26:14Z")
The [CBC report](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/12/21/russell-williams-divorce.html) says that Harriman’s lawyer wants her client’s medical and financial records sealed. That suggests that there is a claim for relief other than divorce, for there is no need for any records other than a marriage certificate to obtain a divorce if there are no children. Harriman and Williams had no children, so custody, access and child support are not at issue. They both had very good incomes, and Harriman still has a very good income, so it is very doubtful that spousal support is at issue. There were property transfers under a domestic contract, which given the timing was most likely a separation agreement. Williams does not appear to have contested anything, and instead appears to have tried to protect Harriman, so the odds are against there actually being a true fight between he and his wife, however, a finding on property equalization by the Court would stave off the action by one of Williams’ victims against Harriman for fraudulent conveyancing. Thus a contested divorce that requires financial information. As far as requiring medical information goes, that would be used to satisfy the grounds of cruelty by proving that Williams’ conduct was indirectly cruel to Harriman to such a degree that her mental or physical health was seriously affected. By proving cruelty, she would not have to wait the year for a no-fault divorce. Just my two cents – only conjecture. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/116 "2010-12-23T08:51:36Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > T > > As far as requiring medical information goes, that would be used to satisfy the grounds of cruelty by proving that Williams’ conduct was indirectly cruel to Harriman to such a degree that her mental or physical health was seriously affected. By proving cruelty, she would not have to wait the year for a no-fault divorce. > > Just my two cents – only conjecture. I would think that finding out that my husband of however many years was a serial burglar/rapist/killer would be considered a bit stressful … after all he was lying to her for all those years, and could have turned around and done something stabby to her at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/117 "2010-12-23T14:26:47Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > context is everything: > > I’m assuming you’ve not done the former while also doing the latter? 😉 You don’t know me! Okay, fine, I haven’t. A (probably) germane point about the divorce is that his wife is also a fairly public figure. ---
**Author:** ![Intelligently\_Designed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intelligently_designed/32/20957_2.png) [@Intelligently\_Designed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intelligently_Designed)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/118 "2010-12-23T22:57:54Z")
Well, the Canadian Press has just chosen him as [Newsmaker of the Year](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/year-in-review/from-colonel-to-sex-killer-russell-williams-chosen-newsmaker-of-the-year/article1848852/). ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/119 "2010-12-24T00:54:58Z")
> [@Intelligently\_Designed](#): > > Well, the Canadian Press has just chosen him as [Newsmaker of the Year](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/year-in-review/from-colonel-to-sex-killer-russell-williams-chosen-newsmaker-of-the-year/article1848852/). What a guy, even now he’s \*still \*an overachiever. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795/120 "2011-01-04T10:16:12Z")
Interview of Williams’ defence lawyers in Canadian Lawyer Magazine: [http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/behind-the-scenes.html](http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/behind-the-scenes.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-any-updates-on-col-russell-williams/553795.md?page=7)