# Canadians to require biometric IDs to enter US **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199 "2003-02-10T21:22:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Horrifying\_Howler\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Horrifying\_Howler\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horrifying_Howler_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/21 "2003-02-11T16:44:18Z")
ALF is the Animal Liberation Front. But I didn’t think they were only an American group. And as a Canadian, I wouldn’t mind the newer id cards, I don’t see the big deal. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/22 "2003-02-11T16:46:11Z")
This seems like a bit of an exaggeration of what’s actually in the [Patriot Act?](http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html) The closest thing to a cite I could get was Sec. 414a(1)(A), which says they should really work on implementing a law that was passed back in 1996 that said to set up this system ([18 USC 1365a](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1365a.html)). This law is where the dates come from. Then I suppose the id card part comes from the Patriot act where they say they should focus on “the utilization of biometric data” and “the development of tamper-resistant documents readable at ports of entry” in developing this system. But that’s not a requirement in any sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/23 "2003-02-11T16:59:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magayuk \* > \*\*And as a Canadian, I wouldn’t mind the newer id cards, I don’t see the big deal. \*\* As a Canadian who just spent $95 (cdn) on a new passport (which doesn’t come with biometric info) I can see some of the big deal. How much is this nifty keen new biometric ID going to cost to obtain or renew? And why is the solution to a leaky border to make the people crossing the border jump through more and expensive hoops when, as **SmackFu** , **Harli** , and **Ruby** seem to suggest, the border guards already in place aren’t doing their jobs? ---
**Author:** ![CuriousCanuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@CuriousCanuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CuriousCanuck)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/24 "2003-02-11T17:10:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ruby \* > \*\*I just crossed the US/Canadian border this weekend at Sault Ste. Marie and was very disappointed in the level of security. With the US on “orange” alert, I would have expected a more stringent security check. We were asked a couple of questions about what we had purchased in Canada and just waved on. He didn’t even look at our ID’s. That bugs me. \*\* Wow… a mention of my hometown! 🙂 Anyway, I had a ticket to fly from Ottawa to “the Soo” (SSMarie) on Sept 11/01. Obviously I didn’t make it. But on the 13th when I did fly home, we flew over US airspace. (Surprise #1) When my sister and I went across the border to go clubbing in MI there was a marine/army type guy who looked in our trunk. Last time I was in the Soo we crossed the border again and this time were jsut waved through. No names, ID, anything. If the commerce going into the States from Canada (at least in the Soo) were slowed down by border checks that took hours to make it across rather than minutes, I think you would find that a good 30% of the American Soo’s economy would go down the tubes. (I pulled that number out of my ass, but I am willing to bet alot that the real percentage is VERY significant.) I would imagine that there are countless border crossings liek this where one side depends on the other for a good chunk of their economy that comes from day trippers. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/25 "2003-02-11T18:57:28Z")
Actually, to be honest about it, I don’t think these super-id’s will exist for a long time, if ever. I just felt like pointing out the obvious, if haphazard, benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Harli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c0e974/32.png) [@Harli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harli)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/26 "2003-02-11T19:20:59Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by smiling bandit_ > \*\*…I don’t think these super-id’s will exist for a long time, if ever. \*\* Maybe they won’t exist for some time. But if they don’t then come 2005, people won’t be able to get into the US. The original article linked above states that the act has been passed. > [@](#): > > Under the USA Patriot Act, passed by the U.S. Congress after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, all Canadian citizens and landed immigrants will need ID with either a fingerprint or an eye scan to get into the U.S. and that > [@](#): > > The act goes into effect at major border entry points next year and at all entry points by 2005. CBC.ca is not some fluffy site, that is real news on there. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/27 "2003-02-11T19:23:26Z")
As a Canadian, my take on it is this: The last thing our government needs is another costly bureaucracy to implement. Is the cost actually going to result in an improved level of security commensurate with the cost? That is, will we be getting our money’s worth of terrorism-deterring? If the cost runs into the billions (which seems not at all unlikely, given the high costs of the gun-registry program), would it not be better to use that money on other security measures that do not have troubling civil-liberty implications - like paying for more border guards, and paying them a salary sufficient to keep them keen and alert? I am unimpressed with technological solutions to the percieved problem. How can we be certain that, after spending (potentially) billions of dollars on this one solution, somebody does not figure out a relatively cheap and easy way to counterfit or otherwise fool the system? I think the smarter money is on more guards, paying more attention. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/28 "2003-02-11T19:30:11Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* \*\*- Ehhh… iffy. He was a probably a bit nuts. - Fer crying out louf, this man was nuttier than a fruitcake. [QUOTE] Isn’t that precisely the point? ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/29 "2003-02-11T19:55:18Z")
Ehh, as a Canadian, I don’t care. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > \*\*And you wonder why the US has to have tighter security? Maybe if Canada did its job, the US wouldn’t have to worry as much as it (apparently) needs to. \*\* Care to elaborate on this brilliant insight of yours? Before you bring anything up about hijackers, remember they made into the US past US border patrol. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/30 "2003-02-11T20:00:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Harli \* > \*\*CBC.ca is not some fluffy site, that is real news on there. \*\* Maybe so, but it is inaccurate news. HR 3162 (The Patriot Act) **does not** require Canadians to have biometric info on ID cards. Repeat: The Patriot Act does not require Canadians (or anyone else) to have biometric info on ID cards. The section in question is this, it seems: > [@](#): > > b) DEVELOPMENT OF THE SYSTEM- In the development of the integrated entry and exit data system under section 110 of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (8 U.S.C. 1365a), the Attorney General and the Secretary of State shall particularly focus on– > > (1) the utilization of biometric technology; and > (2) the development of tamper-resistant documents readable at ports of entry. Much of this rests on what Section 110 of the IIRIRA is: > [@](#): > > (a) SYSTEM - Not later than 2 years after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Attorney General shall develop an automated entry and exit control system that will– > > (1) collect a record of departure for every alien departing the United States and match the records of departure with the record of the alien’s arrival in the United States; and > > (2) enable the Attorney General to identify, through on-line searching procedures, lawfully admitted nonimmigrants who remain in the United States beyond the period authorized by the Attorney General. In other words, you aren’t required to have biometric info on your passport, but when you present your passport for entry into the country, your fingerprint will be electronically recorded along with your info from your passport and indexed. When you leave, your information will be updated to show that you have left. Nothing really that sinister or hard about it. Especially since it is just encouraging the development of this system, but isn’t mandating an implementation time. Much ado about nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Daikona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Daikona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daikona)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/31 "2003-02-12T00:54:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*Color me NOT in that camp. I have this little thing called “life”. I enjoy it. \*\* And some of us appreciate a little thing called “liberty”. If things keep going at the rate they seem to be now, it’s going to reach a point where I don’t think it would _be_ much of a life any more. Maybe you’ll be happy living in some 1984esque state where everyone is safe because no one can do anything, but I wouldn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/32 "2003-02-12T01:19:27Z")
My biometric (it’s a noun?) information being held by my government. No one is allowed to have my fingerprints until I¡¦m charged with a crime, same here. And I’ll second **Malthus’** concerns on a Canadian bureaucracy oozing out of the budget for this one. I object even more strongly to a foreign government holding onto my person identifiers. At least with my own government I can lobby for the destruction of the program. What guarantees do I get from the foreign government that it will not be abused? What recourse do I have if it is misused? A passport is not equivalent in this instance. A passport remains the property of the issuing government. This biometric ID has my personal property imbedded within it? What right does anyone have to deprive me of that personal property? I’m likely overreacting; it was the CBC that reported it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/33 "2003-02-12T01:21:18Z")
Sorry, but it’s like entering a concert. You want to come to the US’s party, you have to accept their terms for entry. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/34 "2003-02-12T03:03:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Sorry, but it’s like entering a concert. You want to come to the US’s party, you have to accept their terms for entry. \*\* If foreigners were being publically ritually sodomized by border guards, would they still have to like it or lump it? 😃 It seems that the US is forgetting a little thing called “international comity” - a presumption of reciprocity of treatment between friendly, foreign states. Naturally, an argument can be made that the terrorist threat overrides such niceties - but at least it would be nice to get an acknowledgement that such an argument is required, not just “we can do what we want to foreign visitors”. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/35 "2003-02-12T03:15:12Z")
The Canadians can’t do anything…lest we steal the rest of their hockey teams and give them to places like North Carolina and allow them to go to the Stanley Cup finals. Mwahahaha. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/36 "2003-02-12T03:15:42Z")
The article says this is only something they’re brainstorming, tossing around, running up the flagpole to see who salutes. It’s not a done deal yet, by no means. > [@](#): > > Biometric ID cards **may be** needed… > Canadians **may soon need** … > > The new cards…are among the issues the immigration standing committee is discussing at hearings… And, last but not least: > [@](#): > > The chair of the immigration committee said cabinet ministers are working behind the scenes to try to get Canada exempted from the law. Seems to me the whole issue is still wayyyy up in the air. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/37 "2003-02-12T03:15:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Color me NOT in that camp. I have this little thing called “life”. I enjoy it. By changing the way we do things, we let the terrorists win. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/38 "2003-02-12T03:23:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badmana \* > **I think this kind of thing is really silly. No one has crossed into the US from Canada that was a confirmed terrorist. Those 5 men looked for by the FBI? Snopes shows that was a big false alarm cause by bad info.** So what do you call [this guy](http://abcnews.go.com/ABC2000/abc2000us/terrortargets991222.html)? > [@](#): > > **Intelligence officials began taking those warnings from their foreign counterparts more seriously, ABCNEWS has learned, after an Algerian man was stopped Dec. 14 at a border checkpoint near Seattle as he allegedly tried to smuggle bomb-making materials across the border from Canada.** If you need more convincing, just check out this google search on [Ahmed Ressam](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Ahmed+Ressam%22) ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/39 "2003-02-12T03:45:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > **The article says this is only something they’re brainstorming, tossing around, running up the flagpole to see who salutes.** It also states as a fact that: > [@](#): > > Under the USA Patriot Act, passed by the U.S. Congress after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, all Canadian citizens and landed immigrants will need ID with either a fingerprint or an eye scan to get into the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199/40 "2003-02-12T03:50:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fear Itself \* > \*\*So what do you call [this guy](http://abcnews.go.com/ABC2000/abc2000us/terrortargets991222.html)? > > If you need more convincing, just check out this google search on [Ahmed Ressam](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Ahmed+Ressam%22) \*\* So, because _one_ terror dude tried to cross the border and got caught - a border between the two friendliest countries on earth has to become sealed? I think that in the future, people are going to look back at this time and say, “wow! there was a whole lot of overreaction going on - with the US government determined to show domestic “action” over terrorism, even though the actions were mostly symbolic. In fact, the measures taken during this time caused massive inconvenience to all, and eroded those civil liberties which Americans were justifiably proud of, without reducing the threat of terrorism much”. Canada offers a convienient scapegoat for US anxieties - witness Hillary Clinton’s humiliating (for her) rant on the topic of the security threat posed by Canada triggered by the mystery five - only to eat her words when the “incident” turned out to be a false alarm. Easier to blame foreigners than to admit that, basically, preventing terrorism is very difficult and there is no certainty that any amount of increased security will prevent it. If drug smugglers can continue to import literally tons of drugs into the US despite billions of dollars spent to prevent just that, what are the chances of preventing terrorists from smuggling bombs, germs or poison in? Spending more billions, or imposing humiliating identity requirements, or further eroding civil liberties - nothing will ensure safety, whereas the costs of all of these things (tangible and otherwise) is all too certain. What is required is objective thinking. Decide how many resources will be available to protect the country from terrorism, and allocate those resources wisely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadians-to-require-biometric-ids-to-enter-us/154199.md?page=3)