# Canadopers: Who will you be voting for in the election? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891 "2005-04-24T18:58:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/61 "2005-04-30T11:44:38Z")
C-38, not S-38. Sorry. \*\*\*\*S\*\*egregation (vis a vis the _ **C** _onservative’s motion to ban gay civil marriage but permit gay civil union) was going through my head while I was typing. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/62 "2005-04-30T12:10:51Z")
> [@severus](#): > > So I wonder if the government of Alberta couldn’t use the notwithstanding clause to make the _celebration_ of same-sex marriages illegal in Alberta? I think it would make them look very regressive, but could they technically do it? I think that Alberta could use the notwithstanding clause to make the _celebration_ of same-sex marriage illegal in Alberta. The feds have the power to define who can marry. The provinces have the power to perform marriages. The notwithstanding clause permits a government to temporarily make laws that violate the Constitution’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Same sex marriage is constitutionally protected under the Charter of Rights and Freeedoms. Either the feds could use the notwithstanding clause to pass a law prohibiting gays from being married regardless of where the marriage took place, or a province could use the notwithstanding clause to pass a law banning the performance of a gay marriage ceremony in that province even though gay marriage would still be legal in that province if the people had been married elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/63 "2005-04-30T15:46:17Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > It blows me away that the Conservative Party hasn’t clued into this yet. They totally boptched the last election because of that exact belief, held by everyone outside of Alberta–nobody trusts Harper and that is why the Liberals will win the next election. And since we’re in Great Debates now, [here’s the proof](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1114819917404_110229117/?hub=TopStories): > [@CTV.ca](#): > > Over half of Canadians still don’t trust the Conservative leader, according to a poll conducted by The Strategic Counsel for CTV and The Globe and Mail. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/64 "2005-04-30T16:04:57Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Either the feds could use the notwithstanding clause to pass a law prohibiting gays from being married regardless of where the marriage took place, or a province could use the notwithstanding clause to pass a law banning the performance of a gay marriage ceremony in that province even though gay marriage would still be legal in that province if the people had been married elsewhere. This is why I’m not quite sure – the Notwithstanding Clause can get them around the _Charter_, but I don’t think it can get them around the _marriage law._ I’m not sure whether the federal marriage laws require provinces to solemnize all and only legal marriages, or whether the scenario could proceed as you describe. At any rate, I’d think it would certainly end up in protracted litigation if they tried it. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/65 "2005-04-30T17:23:43Z")
Actually I believe that Klein’s most recent position is that Alberta won’t invoke the Notwithstanding Clause because it’s not a valid legal option provincially. He does think the federal government should invoke it, though, and he’s criticized Harper for not taking that stance. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/66 "2005-05-01T17:19:45Z")
Hey, **Gorsnak** , what’s Saskatchewan’s position on the whole SSM thing? I’m having a hard time getting a read on whether SK is more or less redneck than AB (or about the same, except for different reasons). ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/67 "2005-05-01T17:49:09Z")
Well, we’ve got the commies in power here. Err. NDP. Calvert’s government didn’t fight the legal challenge to the marriage laws last year, and SSM has been legal here since then. The Saskatchewan Party expressed concern that govt officials being required to perform same-sex marriages amounts to religious discrimination against those officials. I don’t recall any other anti-SSM rhetoric, and that particular bit seems relatively unimportant. A quick perusal of their website indicates that the issue isn’t mentioned in their current policy statement (and it’s a big document - the .pdf runs 58 pages, and all kinds of obscure stuff gets mentioned). In short, it doesn’t seem that either provincial party thinks there’s any political hay to be made on either side of the issue. Popular opinion-wise I doubt there’s much difference between SK and AB. I believe that the polls I’ve seen broken down by province indicate this. “About the same, except for different reasons” is probably accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/68 "2005-05-01T18:57:24Z")
I don’t understand how the NDP get elected in Saskatchewan. Everyone I knew there had opinions pretty much indistinguishable from Albertans, and the NDP in Alberta is almost non-existant (9.7% of the vote last time around). Edmonton did have an NDP mayor for a while, which was a disaster, and the NDP did get four seats in the Edmonton region in the last election, so we’re what passes for Alberta’s commie enclave, I guess. Which, by any other standard, is still pretty conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/69 "2005-05-01T19:05:31Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I don’t understand how the NDP get elected in Saskatchewan. I thought you grew up here. Are you really that unfamiliar with the political history of this province? The fortunes of the NDP here are no great mystery. Anyways, barring an act of God, the Saskatchewan Party will win the next provincial election. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/70 "2005-05-01T19:57:05Z")
I lived there as a kid. I know almost nothing about Saskatchewan politics. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/71 "2005-05-01T22:09:41Z")
The brief(ish) version of Saskatchewan political history: Little guys banding together against the powers that be is a common theme during the early years in the province (see: United Grain Growers, Saskatchewan Wheat Pool, Federated Co-ops, etc). This comes to a head during the Great Depression with the founding of the CCF. Ironically, the CCF was founded in Calgary. The 1933 “Regina Manifesto” policy statement is pretty much a straight Marxist document. The CCF first took power provincially in 1944 under Tommy Douglas. Douglas is pretty much universally revered, as I’m sure you’re aware, and it’s not without reason. Besides bringing in universal health care, he balanced the provincial books, paid off the debt (Note: the deficit and debt were legacies of the 30’s, and shouldn’t be seen as an indictment of the previous govt), and created such entities as SaskTel, SaskPower, and SGI. There was a brief “respite” from NDP (name changed in 61) rule from 64-71, when Ross Thatcher led a Liberal govt. These days poor Ross is most famous for being Colin’s father. In 71 the NDP came back into power under Blakeney. What followed was probably the worst period of NDP govt in the province, as Douglas’ fiscal prudence got tossed out the window and a significant deficit was run up. That was, of course, the current trend. Trudeau was doing the same thing federally, and I believe even the Alberta Tories were profligate spenders at the time. In 82 they got the boot in favour of Devine’s Tories, who didn’t clean the fiscal house, and then turned out to be systematically corrupt to boot. Note: I wasn’t in the province when the kickback scandal broke, and don’t know the details. From what little I do know it seems to have been blown out of proportion, but whatever the case, the provincial Tories no longer exist. The NDP under Romanow came back into power and did clean up the fiscal house. While Klein was balancing Alberta’s books with great fanfare and much ado about cutbacks, Romanow balanced ours as well with very little fanfare and with proportionately fewer cutbacks. So, in Saskatchewan, the NDP is the party of fiscal responsibility. The people of Saskatchewan are also somewhat attached to our Crown corporations. The Sask Party lost the last election largely because people were convinced they’d sell them off. Here’s an example that helps to explain why: we read news stories about massive increases in auto insurance premiums, and in profits made by insurance companies. Meanwhile, SGI plugs along turning a small profit and we have the lowest car insurance premiums in the country. Coincidence? Most people here don’t think so. Now, maybe the low rates are the result of low traffic densities, etc., and maybe we’d have even lower rates with private insurance. But the fact is, nearly everywhere rates are going up, and here they aren’t. So selling off SGI is not going to be a politically popular move in this province. This is less the case with the Crown utilities, since utility monopolies are generally pretty strictly regulated even if they’re private. Most people here see little reason to privatize, though. Devine sold off a bunch of stuff, and it didn’t gain us much of anything. Comparing attitudes between Alberta and Saskatchewan is tricky. I think the levels of social conservatism are roughly the same, though they manifest themselves a little differently. But both still have a lot of old-time rural social mindset going. Fiscal conservatism is a whole different ball of wax. The gospel of the free market economy doesn’t sell very easily here. Tommy Douglas is still viewed as a saint, and the mythic figure isn’t the rugged individualist making good, but the poor, hard-working farmer banding together with his neighbours. Which is ironic, since the farmers all vote for the Saskatchewan Party these days. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/72 "2005-05-02T03:39:30Z")
I lived for 22 years in Saskatchewan, and the last 15 in Alberta, and I have to say that both provinces definitely have their pros and cons. If you want a kinder, gentler economy and believe in social safety nets, SK is the place to be. If you want a cut-throat, capitalist economy where you are free to make as much money as you can, AB is your dream. I can totally see myself retiring back in Saskatchewan (or at least getting a nice cabin at a nice lake). (NDP gov’t doesn’t surprise me at all. Now, a LIBERAL gov’t, that would surprise me. Prairie folk have really long memories.) ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/73 "2005-05-02T04:07:23Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > We have had a Conservative government in Alberta like, forever. Guess what? It’s a pretty nice place to live, even for those who like their vices. I’ve never seen any special persecution of gays, and we don’t drown our poor in the North Saskatchewan river. Is there gay marriage? Because if not, that’s pretty specific and onerous persecution right there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/74 "2005-05-02T04:20:04Z")
I can’t seem to find this mentioned anywhere in the thread – for what date is the election scheduled? Also – does anybody think it will lead to a change in government? The impression I’m getting from this thread is that it’s like the coming British general election – a study in foregone conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/75 "2005-05-02T04:28:13Z")
There is no date for an election. It’s just expected that there will be one soon, since both the Tories and the Bloc have publicly committed themselves to bringing down the government whenever they should happen to get a chance. That will likely be later this month, which would put an election end of June-ish. The outcome would be in a certain amount of doubt. The Liberals will lose seats to the Bloc in Quebec. If the Tories can pick up 20 or so seats, they’ll get their chance to form a minority government. If they can’t, we’re back with another Liberal minority. The biggest losers will be the NDP who, even though they’re likely to gain a few seats, will be too small to put either of the two major parties over the top for a majority. The Bloc will hold the balance of power, I’m sorry to say. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/76 "2005-05-02T04:34:04Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Is there gay marriage? [No.](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1102608109348_98017309?s_name=&no_ads=) > [@](#): > > “Since the court ruled the authority over same-sex marriage falls to the federal government, it is only the federal government who can invoke the notwithstanding clause to maintain the traditional definition of marriage,” he added in a statement. > > “The court clearly said that provinces could not refuse to issue licences or register same-sex marriages.” > > Nevertheless, for now, Stevens said, Alberta stands behind its own marriage law, which defines marriage as the union of one man and one woman. And that, he added, reflects what he believes to be the values of most Albertans . . . In the meantime, same-sex couples hoping for a marriage licence in Alberta are out of luck, since no court in Alberta has struck down the current marriage definition. > > “The definition of marriage in this province is the traditional one,” Stevens said, “And so a same-sex couple that would seek a marriage licence today in Alberta would be declined.” Most Albertans? Perhaps. But not this one. The Conservatives would see members of my family treated as second class citizens. I won’t have it. I wouldn’t vote for a Conservative dogcatcher. But, since I live in the (blackened, soulless, honky-tonkin’) heart of Calgary, my vote makes little difference[sup]\*[/sup]. I voted NDP last time around because I get a perverse pleasure from the idea of not selling water to the US, but this time I think I’ll vote Liberal. People say Martin’s done nothing, but Conservatives might do something. Between nothing and something Conservatives might do, I’ll take nothing. As far as I’m concerned the sponsorship scandal, as someone else in some other thread said, is slightly higher on the criminality scale than fibbing on expense reports. And as Mr. Martin said, the sponsorship program was cancelled on his taking power. It’s not an issue to me. [sup]\*[/sup][sub]Although, to my surprise and delight, my riding did turf the reigning Conservative MLA for a Liberal - nay, a **hippy** - in the last provincial election.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/77 "2005-05-02T05:32:29Z")
[QUOTE=The ToothI voted NDP last time around because I get a perverse pleasure from the idea of not selling water to the US . . .[/QUOTE] 😕 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/78 "2005-05-02T06:00:51Z")
That was part of the NDP’s platform: halting the sale of water to the U.S (or anywhere else, for that matter). I approve of this. Selling such a resource is foolish in any case, and I considered supporting the suspension of water sales to be my own little vote against George Bush and his policies. It’ll do in lieu of sanctions. Petty, I know. But like I said, my vote is wasted in this city anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/79 "2005-05-02T06:07:38Z")
> [@The Tooth](#): > > That was part of the NDP’s platform: halting the sale of water to the U.S (or anywhere else, for that matter). But **does** Alberta sell water to any U.S. state? Never heard of that. ---
**Author:** ![IGJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/igjoe/32/5420_2.png) [@IGJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IGJoe)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891/80 "2005-05-02T06:20:44Z")
I’ll be voting NDP. I would never, _ever_ wish for an NDP government, but it would be nice to have more left-of-center representation and influence in the House. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/canadopers-who-will-you-be-voting-for-in-the-election/300891.md?page=5)