# Cancel Culture and Canceling versus consequences for actions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2025, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644 "2025-07-08T22:55:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/575 "2025-07-16T17:18:54Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > The topic is Cancel Culture. I claim #metoo is a fundamental aspect of that. Ok, cool. I disagree, but I don’t really know that it changes anything. As I noted above, I don’t think cancelling is inherently bad, I think there are situations where it’s a totally valid thing to do. I wouldn’t call someone facing consequences for being a sex criminal “cancelling”, any more than locking up a murderer or violent assaulter is “cancelling”; but if you insist on calling #metoo “cancelling” then someone facing consequences for committing rape or sexual assault would be an appropriate situation for consequences to be doled out. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/576 "2025-07-16T17:54:10Z")
Moderating: > [@Babale](#): > > Well, you DO know that Hardwick is a W#ite m#le, so statistically speaking he’s a lying rapist. Or something. > [@Babale](#): > > Can you throw Colonialism and White Supremacy on there too, so I get my bingo? > [@Babale](#): > > Making an actual argument rather than relying on buzzwords is “pandering”? Got it, I’ll treat your argument with the consideration it merits. Resorting to snark, as you so often do, does not advance the discussion. In fact, it can reasonably be interpreted as trolling. You need to find better ways to carry on your discussions, or stay out of them. > [@Babale](#): > > The voices in @Zoobi’s head deserve a reply? I’m issuing you another formal warning for engaging in a personal attack. You’re racking these up. We will escalate moderation if you continue to engage in this way. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/577 "2025-07-16T18:22:25Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > No, pal, you need to believe people on the basis of their evidence-based credibility, not on their gender or race. I’ll do that when Whiteness and Patriarchy are history, thanks, bud. > [@wolfpup](#): > > The reason I brought up court cases several times is that this is the best way society has yet found to establish the facts when there are conflicting claims between parties. Irrelevant when the case in question hasn’t been brought to court. And once again, not a Vulcan, don’t give a fig about being dispassionate. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/578 "2025-07-16T18:28:33Z")
Moderating: > [@wolfpup](#): > > No, pal, you need to believe people on the basis of their evidence-based credibility, not on their gender or race. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ll do that when Whiteness and Patriarchy are history, thanks, bud. @Babale is not the only one throwing snark in this thread. Both, dial it back. You’re not in the Pit. None of this facilitates a productive discussion on a subject that provokes high feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/579 "2025-07-16T18:40:39Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > My experience with ‘progressive thought’ is pretty much entirely online… Yeah, that tracks. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m not against safe spaces. I’m against the naive implementation of them, where people think they can make a common space safe for everyone and end up excluding a whole bunch of people. You have a fundamental misunderstanding what a “safe space” is. _By definition_ a safe space is not supposed to be safe for everyone, because its intended to keep out the people who are making things unsafe. > [@DemonTree](#): > > But I don’t understand why you’d feel people were being jerks to you specifically. Absolutely fucking baffled how you read my last two posts and came away with, “ **Miller** thinks autistic people are jerks.” The entire point of the analogy is they _aren’t_ being jerks, they’re just being themselves, and if I bitched about it, _I’m_ the jerk for going into _their_ space and demanding they act according to _my_ preferences. ---
**Author:** ![Frilly\_Heck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90ced4/32.png) [@Frilly\_Heck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frilly_Heck)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/580 "2025-07-16T18:52:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And I’m against trying to turn the world into a safe space by demanding everyone comply with an escalating series of demands to watch their words, read the room, keep abreast of constantly changing progressive shibboleths, and treat minor failings as worse than murder. And then lying that it’s just basic politeness. Do you honestly feel this is accurate, or are you indulging in a bit of hyperbole? Erm, worse than murder? People are lying to you about what they perceive to be basic politeness? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/581 "2025-07-16T18:54:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Pointing out the sophistry of screaming “Capitalism” at anything that moves There’s no “sophistry” in pointing out the amoral selfishness of capitalism when a corporation, its interests and its wealthy employee are the subjects under consideration, and the supposed beneficence of that corporation is raised as though it were a fact. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/582 "2025-07-16T19:46:36Z")
> [@Frilly\_Heck](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > And I’m against trying to turn the world into a safe space by demanding everyone comply with an escalating series of demands to watch their words, read the room, keep abreast of constantly changing progressive shibboleths, and treat minor failings as worse than murder. And then lying that it’s just basic politeness. > > Do you honestly feel this is accurate, or are you indulging in a bit of hyperbole? Erm, worse than murder? People are lying to you about what they perceive to be basic politeness? I had a similar question. What “minor failings” are treated as “worse than murder”, and by whom? And who is lying? Basic politeness does indeed change over time. The “n word” was once generally acceptable, and is now understood to be, at best, rude in almost every circumstance. The “f word” was once always rude and abrasive, and now is often just a show of minor frustration. And i don’t know anyone who cares if you use the fish fork for your salad. Every society has rules of politeness, and it behooves people who don’t want to be relegated to “crazy obnoxious old guy” to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/583 "2025-07-16T20:08:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There’s no “sophistry” in pointing out the amoral selfishness of capitalism when a corporation, its interests and its wealthy employee are the subjects under consideration, and the supposed beneficence of that corporation is raised as though it were a fact. This isn’t the thread to debate capitalism as a concept; snark aside, all I’m saying is that if your argument is “we can’t trust these reports because they are a product of capitalism” then you aren’t going to be making a very convincing point to anyone who is not already a dedicated anti-capitalist. You come closer to making a fleshed out argument in this quoted post, where you explain that your objection is that the corporation is portrayed as beneficent when in fact they’re acting in their own self interest. Unlike simply pointing out that the corporation is a capitalistic entity, this explains why you think this is a problem. However, the argument is a strawman. No one thinks that the corporation is beneficent. The corporation only cares about its own interests. What #Metoo has accomplished (beyond individual prosecutions of specific perpetrators) is a cultural shift, that caused corporations to face a large cost if they were perceived by the public to be supporting or enabling sexual predators in their ranks. AMC may only have investigated Hardwick for selfish reasons related to their own bottom line; but if they had found evidence that he was guilty of serious wrongdoing, AMC would have happily fired him to protect their own brand. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/584 "2025-07-16T20:15:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > AMC may only have investigated Hardwick for selfish reasons related to their own bottom line; but if they had found evidence that he was guilty of serious wrongdoing, AMC would have happily fired him to protect their own brand. I would guess, rather, that is they found “proof that was likely to become public” that he was guilty of serious wrongdoing, they would reluctantly have fired him to protect their own brand. I think that if he makes money for them, so long as they were comfortable that no one would conclusively prove his guilt, they would prefer to keep him making money for them. And that’s why i think the results of an unreleased investigation don’t tell us much. If he were provably innocent, i expect they would have released the results. And if he we’re provably guilty in a way they couldn’t cover up, i expect they would drop him and distance themselves from him. Given the actual outcome, i think we don’t know what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/585 "2025-07-16T20:19:52Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I would guess, rather, that is they found “proof that was likely to become public” that he was guilty of serious wrongdoing, they would reluctantly have fired him to protect their own brand. > > I think that if he makes money for them, so long as they were comfortable that no one would conclusively prove his guilt, they would prefer to keep him making money for them. That sounds _incredibly_ risky to me. Look at it through a game theory lens. If Hardwick is guilty and you investigated him and brushed it under the table, and later on evidence conclusively showing his guilt _does_ come out - literally anything, a text, an email, a video - then AMC is in _far_ more trouble than they would have been if they simply refused to investigate Hardwick to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/586 "2025-07-16T20:24:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If Hardwick is guilty and you investigated him and brushed it under the table, and later on evidence conclusively showing his guilt _does_ come out - literally anything, a text, an email, a video - then AMC is in _far_ more trouble than they would have been if they simply refused to investigate Hardwick to begin with. So, under capitalism, the smartest move in response to an allegation is to cancel the accused! ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/587 "2025-07-16T20:27:28Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And that’s why i think the results of an unreleased investigation don’t tell us much. If he were provably innocent, i expect they would have released the results. And if he we’re provably guilty in a way they couldn’t cover up, i expect they would drop him and distance themselves from him. Have you considered “the fallacy of the excluded middle”? That Hardwick, an imperfect human being, might have done some fairly awful things in that relationship? I’m pretty sure he did, and he in fact admitted as much. Yeah, I’m not here to defend Hardwick or condemn Dykstra as some seem to think. What I believe is that in the complicated realities of an intense and conflicted relationship, both did some pretty despicable things. But it was clearly Dysktra – not Hardwick – who went on the offensive with that article, replete with all her own emotionally-driven biases. And it was clearly Dysktra who declined to participate in the investigation that she must obviously have known it would spawn, where she could have supported her accusations. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/588 "2025-07-16T20:31:40Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Have you considered “the fallacy of the excluded middle”? That Hardwick, an imperfect human being, might have done some fairly awful things in that relationship? How about the excluded everything? Since we have literally no facts about what actually happened – only the written words of Dysktra – maybe we should just hold back any judgment at all and ensure we aren’t piling a bunch more shit on the giant mountain of shit that women facing abuse already have to deal with? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/589 "2025-07-16T20:36:28Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > So, under capitalism, the smartest move in response to an allegation is to cancel the accused! Yes, cancelling of public figures in large part works because of economic pressure applied to their backers. Were you making a particular point by pointing this out? If so, I missed it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/590 "2025-07-16T20:40:39Z")
Did i exclude the middle? I thought i left the middle wide open. But if he mistreated her, i am not going to condemn her for saying that. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/591 "2025-07-16T20:57:46Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > What I believe is that in the complicated realities of an intense and conflicted relationship, both did some pretty despicable things What despicable things do you believe this early 20 something woman did during her relationship with a famous man 20 years older than her? Who was also her boss. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/592 "2025-07-16T21:38:58Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Have you considered “the fallacy of the excluded middle”? Have you considered not speculating on a subject where you have very little actual information? It’s entirely possible that Dykstra made everything up to harm Hardwick. It’s entirely possible that everything Dykstra said was true, but she was intimidated into not pressing the matter. Or it could be one of a dozen equally plausible scenarios in between, and none of us have anywhere near enough information to say which is more likely to be true than the other. What we can say is that there was an accusation against a celebrity, the celebrity’s employer suspended them briefly while they investigated the accusation, and when it was unsubstantiated, he was able to resume working. Which sounds like exactly how this sort of thing should be handled, so I’m confused why it’s been offered as an example of a problem with “cancel culture.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/593 "2025-07-16T22:08:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > and when it was unsubstantiated, he was able to resume working. We have no information that it was “unsubstantiated”. Nothing was released about the findings of the investigation. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644/594 "2025-07-16T23:06:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You have a fundamental misunderstanding what a “safe space” is. _By definition_ a safe space is not supposed to be safe for everyone, because its intended to keep out the people who are making things unsafe. Hmm. I’m pretty sure that’s not true. IME it’s presented as a place where behaviour (usually language) is policed to protect certain groups of people. It’s not supposed to be so drastically discriminatory that you are banning people just because of _who they are_, even if that might be the result in practice. > [@Miller](#): > > Absolutely fucking baffled how you read my last two posts and came away with, “ **Miller** thinks autistic people are jerks.” The entire point of the analogy is they _aren’t_ being jerks, they’re just being themselves, and if I bitched about it, _I’m_ the jerk for going into _their_ space and demanding they act according to _my_ preferences. It was this line: > [@Miller](#): > > I’d be profoundly uncomfortable in a safe place for autistic people to socialize without masking, because to me it would seem like everyone is being a jerk to me. This seems to imply that not only do non-masking autists make you uncomfortable, you perceive them as jerkish . “Everyone” is a fairly strong term to use here. Maybe you didn’t mean it, but it’s a reasonable read of your statement. I was surprised by it, I’ve gotta say. And, you know, autistic people are not obliged to stay in some kind of segregated space, or to put on an act of normalcy outside it. Any more than queer people are. If either of those things makes people uncomfortable, that’s their problem. It’s not their business to police how other people express themselves. * * * > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@Frilly\_Heck](#): > > > > Do you honestly feel this is accurate, or are you indulging in a bit of hyperbole? Erm, worse than murder? People are lying to you about what they perceive to be basic politeness? > > I had a similar question. What “minor failings” are treated as “worse than murder”, and by whom? I often see leftists talking about the root causes of crime, and generally making excuses for criminals. And they say prison should be about rehabilitation, and criminals should be helped to find employment, and reintegrated in society after release. And then social justice supporters demand that people be fired, and pressure their friends to denounce them, for mildly going against the progressive consensus on some issue. Seen it 100 times on Twitter. Maybe it’s not actually the same people? But it’s hard to avoid feeling that bigotry has more moral weight for these people than actual serious crimes. It reminds me of how certain Christians have a whole long list of sins to worry about, but for some reason, the only one they care about is homosexuality. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > And who is lying? Basic politeness does indeed change over time. The “n word” was once generally acceptable, and is now understood to be, at best, rude in almost every circumstance. The “f word” was once always rude and abrasive, and now is often just a show of minor frustration. And i don’t know anyone who cares if you use the fish fork for your salad. Using the fish fork for your salad has been replaced by saying ‘homeless’ instead of ‘unhoused’ or ‘BAME’ instead of ‘people of the global majority’. It’s 90% signalling that you’re part of the ‘in crowd’; only instead of seeing the ignorant as low class, you get to denounce them as immoral instead. And people do use pleas to be polite as a way to hobble opposition - by using euphemistic language to hide what is really happening, and by defining _any_ way to talk about a particular concept as offensive, newspeak-style: if there is no word for the concept, a heretical thought will be literally unthinkable, or at least inexpressible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cancel-culture-and-canceling-versus-consequences-for-actions/1020644.md?page=20)