Canine Lymphoma

Factual Questions
21

Weedkillers are herbicides, and AFAIK the study concentrated on pesticides, which by design and chemistry will have more effect on higher animals. But no, one application before onset of something with a long development cycle like (most) cancers probably did no harm.

OTOH, my dogs ran around on freshly treated lawns many times, six to eight times a year. No real option and the spousal struggle to “do it safely, or don’t do it at all, f*ck the lawn” is already starting. It needs to be done on one half and then the other, with a solid rain after the application, so that there’s always a safe® half of the yard for the dogs to use. Even that may not be sufficient isolation from the exposure.

22

I can’t really pinpoint exactly when my depression started to lift and I began to move toward acceptance. The Golden I have now, Buddy, came into my life about eight months after Jake’s sudden death. I didn’t want a dog or feel like I was ready to love another one, but he needed a home and I couldn’t say no. On the one year anniversary of Jake’s death, even though I’d had Buddy for four months, it was still very painful. I didn’t let myself start getting close to Buddy for at least six months after I got him. I just couldn’t open myself up to the risk of that kind of pain again…but eventually I did.

To be totally honest, I still grieve for Jake to some degree. He’s been gone for five years (in October) and a week hasn’t gone by that I haven’t thought of him at some point. He was exceptionally goofy and even more lovable than the average Golden Retriever and I miss the way he would make me laugh. Sometimes, when I think of him, the feelings are happy ones, but they usually hurt more than anything. I’m don’t expect to ever be completely over it.

It’s a lot like losing very important people in your life. For me, it was my grandmothers and my grandfather (only had one because the other died before I was born). But after their deaths, I wasn’t quite the same person any more. But somehow I figured out how to keep living despite my sadness and feelings of loss. My grandfather was my best friend and he died in 1998 (when I was 23). Even now, 18 years later, I’ll see something or think about something that we did together (he was a mechanic, so it was usually related to cars). For just a moment, I sometimes forget that he’s gone and think "I need Poppa’s advice on this…then it hits me that he’s gone. My grandmothers died in 2012 and 2015 and I do that even more with them.

I’m not trying to be a downer. The point I’m trying to make is that your pain will get easier in time, but if you love like I do, then it won’t happen for quite a while. =( A few pet loss/grief websites that I found helped, but the most helpful thing was finding a local support group. It helped to be around others who were hurting like I was and it made me realize that I was going to survive, but life would never be the same. =)

23

Thank you, Omar. I’m sorry for your loss as well. I’m always saying that I hate it when people we love die. (When you have a close relationship with an animal, I count them as “people you love”.)

I can relate to you, totally. I’ve been on both sides of the “wondering what was wrong” and “knew what was wrong” prior to euthanasia and they’re both horribly painful. My husband lost a beloved cat after about 6 months of progressive diagnostics and surgeries trying to figure out what was wrong, before the kitty finally just died. He wanted to figure it out and cure his baby, but then after it was over he kicked himself (and still does, actually) for putting his cat through the torture of all that. In such situations, you just don’t know what to do. In my experience, vets aren’t much help on this, either. They will do what you ask them to, but they don’t help you make decisions or advise you that you may be prolonging your pet’s suffering. Heck, I lost a cat a few years ago to diabetic organ failure. She was in the hospital where they were trying to pull her through, and I got a call at 4 am telling me that her heart stopped but they were trying to resuscitate her. I was appalled. Just let her rest, man!

I can also relate to your feelings of betrayal. I mentioned asking Ajax to be patient waiting for the doctor to arrive. I was also apologizing to him for putting him through that because I felt like complete shit. The vet arrived and gave him pain relief as quickly as they could, but for me to make him endure even one minute of that hell was one minute too much. It’s my job to protect and provide for him and solve all of his problems, and there I was doing nothing about it other than mumbling platitudes. I felt like a complete failure as his protector. But sometimes the universe is complete shit and you can’t do anything about it. I’m not at all happy about it, but I guess I can cope with it.

24

I definitely do not consider your posts as “downers”. Believe me, after the death of my Emma, its actually comforting to read the words of others who have walked the path that I am currently on. I definitely love(d) my dogs, even to the point of putting myself in harm’s way if it meant protecting them. Sounds silly, but it’s true.

I actually did find two Pet Loss Grief Groups that meets the first week of each month. They have helped tremendously in realizing that I am not alone or crazy in my grief. What I do find amazing, is that people are crying for their 17 year old dog (that just passed away) as much a I am crying over my 5.5 year loss. I guess no matter how much you get, you always want more.

Out of curiousity, was it a pet specific grief group, or a “general” loss/grief group that you attended? I thought of trying to attend a general grief group, but wondered if I would be, for lack of a better word, ridiculed by a parent who just lost their human child to a tragedy.

25

This probably isn’t helpful and may even sound insensitive, but things could be a whole, whole, WHOLE lot worse. I lost my wife of 23 years to cancer 18 months ago, and I would give everything I own to have only lost a pet. I was devastated to the point of complete nonfunctionality for a good nine months. Things started to improve after that, with help from friends and family.

I did go to grief counseling and it was helpful. If I were you I would NOT attend a general grief group. People who have lost a family member are probably not going to be very sympathetic to your loss, and may even be offended by your attendance. And while grief for a pet is similar to grief for a loved one, the issues you’re dealing with, devastating as they are, are not the same as what a surviving spouse goes through. I’m not saying that your grief is any less intense, but the issues are just different.

I have had pet rats for over 10 years. I love my rats, but rats usually only live 2-3 years, so dealing with grief for departed pets is kind of a fact of life for me. But it is not remotely comparable to what I went through when my wife died.

–Mark

26

Markn+,

Your post is definitely NOT insensitive to me and I truly appreciate your input. I really do.

First, my sincere condolences for the loss of your wife.

As a mostly logical, 42 year old male, I actually try to “logic” my way out of most problems & issues that I come across. It irritates the hell out of my wife.

I have even attempted to due so with the loss of my Emma;

I look in the mirror and ask myself the following questions:

Did I lose my wife? No.
Did I lose a human child to an alligator or tragic roller coaster ride? No.
Did I or my wife suffer any tragic event, such as paralysis, etc.? No
Did I lose everything in a fire? No.
Did I lose Emma in a fire? No.
Did I lose Emma to a violent tragedy? No.
Did I lose Emma because I forgot her in a hot car? No.

Markn+,

I have definitely tried to minimize my loss by trying to convince myself that it pales in comparison to other types of losses. I really have. But in the end, I only come to terms with the fact that the grief/loss is going to be proportional to the love you had for that which you lost.

BTW, I know someone who lost her husband just over 2 years ago. She also advised me NOT going to a general grief group, as it might of appeared insensitive to some of the others there. And she is a VERY big pet lover. Her and her husband, while he was alive, had a couple of losses over the years that they took extremely hard. They were the types to spend several thousand dollars trying to save their cats.

And as an extreme pet lover, she said that she completely understood my pain. But advised me to stick to the pet groups. I just wish they met more often.

27

First, I’m sorry for the losses of any doggy companions. It is my job to diagnose diseases, but I always hope that it is found early and that they respond well to treatment and enjoy long periods of pampering. If it is a necropsy, I hope that my findings will give closure and help with the mourning for the loss of a beloved pet.

  1. Have you ever seen or dealt with cardial lymphoma?

Yes, unfortunately.

  1. The lymphona was on the heart and did NOT show up in any scans. Would you have tried to remove the mass/tumor?

As Jackmanii mentioned, surgery is NOT used with lymphoma. Lymphoma is a systemic disease and needs to be treated systemically, hence with chemotherapy.

  1. Would you have recommended radition/chemotherapy?

If found early enough, many types of lymphoma respond very well to the latest chemotherapy protocol (mentioned by Jackmanii). The most advanced treatments offer long regressions, and they tend to be the most expensive. Still, cheaper options can offer a nice time of improved quality of life for the dog.

Your dog Omar, I’m sorry to say, did not have the “nice” type of lymphoma. So doing chemotherapy would’ve been very difficult, as you couldn’t even stage her properly (or know that she had a cancer that needed treatment).

  1. If not radiation/chemotherapy. would you have advised a different plan? If so, than what?

Chemotherapy is SOP for lymphoma.

  1. What were typical remission times with radiation/chemotherapy?

The best remission times for chemotherapy, with the best protocol, tend to be around 2 years, which in a dog’s lifetime can be significant (especially for an older dog). This does not mean that the dog dies at the 2 years, simply that the tumour returns. Another protocol can then be tried, but in general with each remission and treatment, the time to the next appearance of the cancer is decreased.

  1. Heart: Lymphoma
    Kidney: metastic lymphoma
    Liver: chronic congestion, hepatic atrophy
    Spleen: hemosiderosis
    Lungs: pulmonary edema and congestion

Translation: The main tumour was in the heart, but it had spread to the kidneys by the time she died. This is bad, as even if say, you found out about the cardiac mass, any cancer with metastases is a bad prognosis (bad outcome expected).

Liver: Some changes that could be related to cardiac function if the mass was affecting how the heart works, but nothing serious.

Spleen: Again, a side effect of her condition.

Lungs: Ditto.

There was nothing you could do, and it could have happened to anyone. Many times there are diseases and tumours that strike unannounced and strike hard. I’m sorry for your loss.

28

KarlGrenze,

I definitely appreciate you responding to my thread! It’s been almost 10 weeks since she has been gone, and it still hurts as if I just lost her yesterday.

I guess I keep “second guessing” the entire situation even though it’s futile at this point.

Since you have dealt with this type of lymphoma before;

Are you surprised that Purdue couldn’t see/find the lymphoma in the end? Is that atypical?

I guess the big issue that keeps me up at night…

She started being sedentary about 2 years ago. She still ate healthy. Still drank healthy. Healthy walks, etc.

But if I would have pressed the issue (of her being sedentary) a year ago, would early treament mean that she would still be with me today?

I know, I know…I am just torturing myself with “what if”.

I just really miss her.

29

Not surprised they couldn’t find it until necropsy. Lymphoma is an umbrella for many different types of cancer, as alluded by Jackmanii. Sure, there are some that are more common than others, and there are some that are more treatable and with better outcomes (the animal may live long enough to die of something else). But they may always have it.

Again, even if they had found a mass in the heart, what could be done? It is very risky to try and obtain a biopsy (piece of mass) or even cytology (scattered cells) in a live animal to get a proper diagnosis and then establish a treatment. You probably wouldn’t have been able to extend the life past of what you already did (2 years even with treatment for lymphoma is not bad or uncommon), and perhaps you couldn’t have been able to do much other than known, for the past two years, that your doggy had a mass. Dog wouldn’t have cared (because they don’t see the implications of that), but you would’ve been anxious and stressed. Would it have been overall better?

You gave your pet a beloved, well cared for, perhaps a bit spoiled, life. Cherish the good moments.