# Cannabis Extracts for the Primary Treatment of Cancer, Epilepsy, and More **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684 "2013-11-11T22:30:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![JKander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@JKander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKander)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/222 "2013-11-14T06:40:30Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > **JKander** , I’ve been following this thread with rapt attention and I must say, you’ve convinced me. This is going to revolutionize the way we look at medicine and maybe even the human body. We _can’t_ wait. So I’m ready. What do I do?? 😕 What’s your goal here? While I’m almost 100% certain this is sarcastic, I will repeat my ultimate goal, which I state in the abstract of my report. To treat a hospice center of terminal cancer patients with cannabis medicine to prove it works once and for all. This plan is already starting to come together, which is hopeful, but there is so much more to go. My goal for coming onto this forum was twofold. I hoped that in a community of intelligent people, someone could maybe help with my primary goal in some way. That’s turning out to be extremely unlikely, but my secondary goal has been exceeded. I wanted to debate about this, to be challenged head on with absolutely no restrictions. Everyone I’ve talked to about this either hasn’t thought to bring up the challenges you guys have or has refrained because they didn’t want to argue or be awkward or something. But you all have come at me with the fire that I needed, and I deeply appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/223 "2013-11-14T06:40:45Z")
So the parents can stop giving the oil and the seizures won’t return? ---
**Author:** ![JKander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@JKander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKander)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/224 "2013-11-14T06:47:58Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > So the parents can stop giving the oil and the seizures won’t return? I’m not sure, they haven’t tried yet. I would imagine it would take a long time before they could stop providing oil and the benefits would persist. For cases like diabetes, I have heard that when people stop taking oil, they do need insulin again. So for some cases, it seems like continued treatment is needed. That’s not problematic - taking a small dose of CBD oil every day is no different than taking a vitamin. You don’t get high, and it delivers antioxidant and neuroprotectant properties. I believe that in the future, every human will take some form of cannabis every day. And through the power of high-CBD or industrial hemp-based medicines, people don’t even need to get high! That’s another great irony of this movement. Everybody has always associated medicinal cannabis with getting high. But the most effective form of cannabis medicine, high-CBD cannabis oil, has no psychoactive effects. When you look below the surface, greater truths are revealed. Just for the record, there are many cases of cancer that were eliminated with cannabis oil and stayed gone for years after treatment stopped. However, there are some cases, like Cash Hyde, where the cancer returned, although he never got to use a proper amount of oil in the first place. I’m trying to think of a case where the cancer returned after an actually full treatment, but I simply can’t. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/225 "2013-11-14T06:59:32Z")
> [@JKander](#): > > While I’m almost 100% certain this is sarcastic, I will repeat my ultimate goal, which I state in the abstract of my report. To treat a hospice center of terminal cancer patients with cannabis medicine to prove it works once and for all. This plan is already starting to come together, which is hopeful, but there is so much more to go. You missed my post upthread where nine patients with brain cancer were treated. The oil was introduce via tube to the tumor. They all died. And while cannabis may have some effect on regulating blood sugar, it doesn’t solve the underlying problem. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/226 "2013-11-14T07:07:50Z")
But what about the people who also tried cannabis oil and found it didn’t work? You openly admitted that you only concentrate on the successes. You talk about how many positive cases there are, but for all you know, for every success there are three failures. Epilepsy is a complicated illness – a lot of people have to take more than one type of medication to control it. (As I mentioned before, I currently take two different medications to control my seizures) If these people are helped by this treatment – that’s great. But there is no miracle drug, and any doctor who told me he had one would make me extremely wary, to say the least. And if they’re calling this a _cure_, and claiming that someone could stop having seizures, even if they stop taking the oil, then they’re out right frauds and should be charged with malpractice. There is no cure for epilepsy. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/227 "2013-11-14T07:17:21Z")
> [@JKander](#): > > (snip)… > When did I say I believed there was nothing a university professor can teach me about logic? That’s just blatant straw man stuff there, I’m sorry. I’ve never professed to know everything and I would love to learn the intimate details of logic at some point. I remember my one friend took a logic class, it gets pretty crazy at the higher levels. I obviously (I’m sure some here will dispute that) understand the basic principles of logic, and I make use of it extensively when talking about this. But if people don’t look at the evidence, even the best logic will always fail. **Right Here:** _“This is the kind of disconnected thinking that is problematic.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/228 "2013-11-14T07:19:21Z")
I’m bewildered why this thread has had so many replies, when my thread on medical marijuana didn’t get even a single reply. Perhaps I was too cautious and too rational in my comments. > **[Children on medical marijuana](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=706899)** > > Note to mods: I am not advocating anything. I am simply reporting on events. Over the last few months, the Colorado Springs Gazette has been running occasional articles on a unique strain of medical marijuana that is being grown in the region. ... ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/229 "2013-11-14T10:56:13Z")
Has JKander admitted that his research is completely without value yet? Or is he still repeating the same refuted points? …Stupid question, really. > [@JKander](#): > > It was also mentioned that medicine is different from food, and that’s why we isolate medicine, so it can achieve desired effects. People need to realize that food _is_ medicine. In fact, one of the most well known statements from the father of medicine, Hippocrates, says, “Let food be your medicine and medicine be for your food.” That couldn’t be more true. The bottom line is that humans _did not_ evolve using single chemicals. Humans evolved eating foods with a complex array of compounds. When we started synthesizing single-chemicals for use as medicine, then you get these problems with side effects, overdoses, toxicity. When nearly every single pharmaceutical commercial has 85% of its content describing a long-list of side effects, you know something is wrong. You have absolutely no understanding of medicine. Essentially everything in here is completely wrong. Please go get an education before continuing to state things which are simply completely false. > [@](#): > > The science supporting cannabis medicine is overwhelming. Oh? You mean there have been large-scale clinical trials? No? Oh, well then it’s not overwhelming. You don’t understand why we do the things we do in medicine to make sure that these things work. > [@](#): > > You all say the experiential results are worthless. That everything I’ve collected is completely dismissable because I didn’t follow the exact scientific protocols. This is a perfect example of the evil of science… for as much good as it has done and will continue to do, it has blinded people to what’s in front of them, to their own power, and to higher-level truths. This is simply 100% pure Chopra-level woo-woo. In fact, if anything, this thread helps reinforce _why_ we need such controls. _Why_ it’s so important to have these scientific protocols. And there’s not really much “exact” about it. Your “higher-level truths” are nothing but a slew of confirmation biases. The fact is simply: any study which does not state who it is observing before treatment starts or has a solid methodology in place to examine statistically representative results after the fact (for example, cohort studies examining existing data) is completely and utterly worthless. It has no explanatory power whatsoever, because if you pick and choose cases entirely by your own arbitration, the existence of statistical outliers will allow you come to whatever conclusion you want. This is medical science 101. I mean, how come these guys didn’t make it into your report: > [@runner pat](#): > > You missed my post upthread where nine patients with brain cancer were treated. The oil was introduce via tube to the tumor. > They all died. I guess these guys just weren’t reported on the places you looked. How many more cases do you think exist where cannabis oil failed, and you just didn’t hear about it? > [@](#): > > I want to reiterate something that nobody addressed, and this is serious. If there’s one thing I want you guys to address, it is this fact. The case of Charlotte Figi, who went from 300 grand mal seizures a week to less than three minor seizures a month, prompted dozens of families to move to Colorado to try this oil. They didn’t wait to see any peer-reviewed studies - basically off just one case, they risked their lives to try this medicine. And it’s actually paying off. 9 of the 11 patients Dr. Margaret Gedde is tracking have experienced 90-100% reductions in seizures, when **no other pharmaceuticals** were working. If these parents acted as you would have instructed, they should’ve stayed in their states, and waited YEARS for this to play out. Do you understand how phase 2 clinical trials work? Believe it or not, in order to have actual clinical trials, you need _patients_ for those trials, and \*the more, the better \*(higher sample size leads to more conclusive results, the average size being about 100-300 people). This is the ruse Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski has been using for the past 36-odd years to treat a massive number of patients with his untested, unvalidated “Antineoplasteon” therapy, despite the drug never having been approved by the FDA. Not that he’s a great example (he never published or finished any of those studies, and it turns out [he’s kind of a fraud](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/11/11/the-fda-reports-on-its-investigation-of-the-burzynski-clinic-and-burzynski-research-institute/)), but there is _nothing_ stopping Charlotte Figi from performing actual clinical studies on her patients with her drug and publishing these in reputable peer-reviewed journals. In fact, given her experience, she could probably publish a decent case study right now of those she has already treated, and if the results are as good as you claim, then that would almost certainly be enough to get grant money to perform this treatment on others for the sake of clinical testing. > [@](#): > > That’s the whole point here. We can’t wait. For the case of epilepsy: you actually have some preliminary evidence (although n=11 is a _tiny_ sample size), and phase 2 clinical trials would be the next step (and would _not_ require you to stop applying the medicine). > [@](#): > > The people who aren’t waiting are moving this forward, and nothing can stop this. That’s why, despite the very insulting remarks to my character, I have maintained the demeanor I have at the start of this thread. Because you’re a true believer whose faith is unshakable despite numerous explanations of how bad your methodology is? > [@](#): > > Because you will all learn the truth soon, and we will all celebrate together and laugh about this. Damn. I’m _good_. > [@](#): > > I understand where you all are coming from. If someone is purporting a miracle cure, and telling people to use an alternative treatment, that’s not just philosophical, there are real consequences. If people forego traditional treatment for the alternative and then die, that’s serious. It’s not a game. And so many people make wild claims based on such little evidence, it is indeed ridiculous that some people put so much faith into things with so little. > > Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That’s true, and the evidence that exists is more than extraordinary. No, it’s not. Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again, we come back to this same point: you don’t understand what “extraordinary” _means_ in the case of medicine. You don’t understand why you could have thousands of anecdotes and it would hardly be meaningful. You barely have a few dozen. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/230 "2013-11-14T13:41:02Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > No, it’s not. Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again, we come back to this same point: you don’t understand what “extraordinary” _means_ in the case of medicine. You don’t understand why you could have thousands of anecdotes and it would hardly be meaningful. You barely have a few dozen. IMO, his problem isn’t with the word “extraordinary”, it’s with “evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/231 "2013-11-14T14:05:50Z")
> [@JKander](#): > > This is the kind of disconnected thinking that is problematic. You say, “at best it suggests that research might be justified here.” But what about people with epileptic children now? For whom nothing else has worked and this shows promise? Should they just wait around for research? Who do you think would be enrolled in the trials exactly? Anyway this is disingenuous and manipulative: everybody advocating for every medicine ever could say the same thing, and then where would we be? Should we just stop testing drugs because we can’t afford to waste even a single second? Like I said already, the research process has to be thorough because sick people can’t afford BS treatments. It needs to be as fast as is practicable but still be rigorous because _that’s what will help the most people over the long term_. You can say “Think of the children!” a million more times (I suspect you will), but that won’t change. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/232 "2013-11-14T14:40:59Z")
Even if **JKander** were to admit the existence of treatment failures, he’d have ready excuses. For example: > [@JKander](#): > > there are many cases of cancer that were eliminated with cannabis oil and stayed gone for years after treatment stopped. However, there are some cases, like Cash Hyde, where the cancer returned, although he never got to use a proper amount of oil in the first place. Note: this is one of the classic altie dodges, a.k.a. “you didn’t do it right”. Others include claiming that the person didn’t use the super-special version of the remedy, or that previous mainstream medical treatment ruined the patient. It seems that critical thinking [may be especially difficult](http://www.blog.theteamw.com/2009/11/07/100-things-you-should-know-about-people-8-dopamine-makes-us-addicted-to-seeking-information/) [for chronic marijuana users](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2352695/Smoking-cannabis-really-DOES-make-people-lazy-affects-area-brain-responsible-motivation.html#ixzz2kdBBm0ZN). _“Long-term use of the drug lowers levels of the feel-good chemical dopamine in the striatum”_ _“The dopamine seeking system keeps us motivated to move through our world, learn, and survive). It’s not just about physical needs such as food, or sex, but also about abstract concepts. Dopamine makes us curious about ideas and fuels our searching for information.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/233 "2013-11-14T16:27:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Who do you think would be enrolled in the trials exactly? Dingdingding! **JKander** , this is something you seem to not understand. From what I can tell, moving to phase 2 clinical trials would actually _increase_ the number of people these doctors can help - in the case of that epilepsy doctor, probably by about an order of magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/234 "2013-11-14T18:02:35Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Dingdingding! **JKander** , this is something you seem to not understand. From what I can tell, moving to phase 2 clinical trials would actually _increase_ the number of people these doctors can help - in the case of that epilepsy doctor, probably by about an order of magnitude. Prediction: The response will be that the pesky FDA requires _paperwork_ for this and there isn’t a moment to waste with that sort of regulatory nonsense when the children are at stake. ---
**Author:** ![Khendrask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@Khendrask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khendrask)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/235 "2013-11-14T18:35:50Z")
You know, Thalidomide was also a wonder drug that perfectly relieved symptoms… ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/236 "2013-11-14T18:39:16Z")
“Let’s just SKIP all this tedious RESEARCH into stupid ‘safety’ and ‘seeing if it actually works’ and whatnot and just GIVE IT TO EVERYONE RIGHT NOW because I KNOOOOOOOOW way deep down in my very tippy tip of my heart of hearts that it totally works, guys! Trust me! Come oooooooon!” Can’t tell you how excited I am to see public health policy changed to this in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![Moe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moe/32/2972_2.png) [@Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moe)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/237 "2013-11-14T19:06:11Z")
> [@JKander](#): > > While I’m almost 100% certain this is sarcastic, I will repeat my ultimate goal, which I state in the abstract of my report. To treat a hospice center of terminal cancer patients with cannabis medicine to prove it works once and for all. This plan is already starting to come together, which is hopeful, but there is so much more to go. > > My goal for coming onto this forum was twofold. I hoped that in a community of intelligent people, someone could maybe help with my primary goal in some way. That’s turning out to be extremely unlikely, but my secondary goal has been exceeded. I wanted to debate about this, to be challenged head on with absolutely no restrictions. Everyone I’ve talked to about this either hasn’t thought to bring up the challenges you guys have or has refrained because they didn’t want to argue or be awkward or something. But you all have come at me with the fire that I needed, and I deeply appreciate it. Hey **JKander** , fellow Terp alum here. (though considerably older). I’ve been following this thread, and while I know you’re probably a good guy trying to do a good thing, I’ve been wanting to pull my hair out reading some of your posts. What you don’t understand is that, there are many people on these boards who are educated and who work in science who are incredibly familiar with the inherent scientific illiteracy in your comments. We all know your arguments quite well. But all this has been said very eloquently by others throughout the thread and with an amazing amount of patience. But I quote you above because this is a laudable goal. You want to treat a hospice center with cannabis? Great! But do it following strict scientific protocols, and record your data with extreme accuracy and transparency. You’ve said multiple times throughout the thread stuff like “we can’t wait for the science! people are suffering! won’t someone please think of the children!!!..” _(paraphrased)_. Or you’ve asked “what would _you_ do if you _knew_ the truth about this?”. I would urge people who are horribly sick with the huge list of ailments you claim can be treated to find ongoing studies looking for participants so that their cases could be useful as data for the benefit of our understanding of if and how the treatment works. If the current state of research is lacking, that’s where I would put my energy: figure out how to get more experts to look at this under controlled scientific conditions. Look, you’ve put all that work and effort into compiling that report (no way I’m even entertaining the idea of reading a 100-page report that some dude who really doesn’t understand the basics of science linked to in a message board) which apparently consists mainly of anecdotes and completely lacks peer reviewed research published in respected journals. Why??? Put that energy into finding ways to get universities and professional scientific researchers interested in doing the necessary research. The hope should NOT be about waking people up to this miracle treatment so they all run to Colorado and get some. What an incredible waste of data that would be! (I’m not gonna bother to mention how incredibly dangerous and irresponsible that would be because others have touched on this plenty). And just to repeat again what so many others have said over and over again: It doesn’t matter that _you_ believe in it. It doesn’t matter that you have thousands or hundreds of gajillions of testimonials… or that you’ve actually seen it work!! or that you have theories about mechanisms of action. It doesn’t even matter if you are 100% correct. I mean that. It doesn’t matter. You very well might be. Cannabis might actually be the miracle cure for cancer, epilepsy, hiccups, and hangnails, and that would be amazingly awesome. But the only thing that matters is the data - good quality, scientifically controlled data, peer review, replication - what we as a society have agreed upon as our standard for separating good info from bad. You may know a guy who’s a political genius, who could bring the political right and left together, solve the economy, health care, and bring peace in the middle east in a week. He’d still have to run in an election, and get voted in by the people before taking over as president. Just as I respect the political process of democratic society, I respect the scientific process as well. It’s there for a good reason, and you’re not above that. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/238 "2013-11-14T21:20:36Z")
What **Moe** said. **JKander** , not all publicity is good publicity. You got a lot of people here thinking about medicinal marijuana, but most of them think _less_ of the movement as a whole as a direct result of your style of argumentation. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/239 "2013-11-14T21:54:01Z")
> [@Moe](#): > > And just to repeat again what so many others have said over and over again: It doesn’t matter that _you_ believe in it. It doesn’t matter that you have thousands or hundreds of gajillions of testimonials… or that you’ve actually seen it work!! or that you have theories about mechanisms of action. It doesn’t even matter if you are 100% correct. I mean that. It doesn’t matter. You very well might be. Cannabis might actually be the miracle cure for cancer, epilepsy, hiccups, and hangnails, and that would be amazingly awesome. But the only thing that matters is the data - good quality, scientifically controlled data, peer review, replication - what we as a society have agreed upon as our standard for separating good info from bad. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![JKander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@JKander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKander)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/240 "2013-11-14T23:00:08Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > What **Moe** said. **JKander** , not all publicity is good publicity. You got a lot of people here thinking about medicinal marijuana, but most of them think _less_ of the movement as a whole as a direct result of your style of argumentation. It doesn’t matter what any of you think. It would’ve been nice if I found people here to be supportive, and I was hoping that to be the case. But it’s clear this thread has more satisfied by desire for debate and discussion than the former goal. And I’m very happy with how it’s gone, I think I’m even happier than if I’d found support. I understand the main problems you see with this, yet everybody here seems to think I’m some kind of idiot. I can’t say I’m surprised based on the claims I’m making, but I’m not stupid. I see every problem you’ve pointed out. The main criticisms I’ve seen are - 1. No methodology for choosing patients in my report 2. Seemingly ignoring failures and only focusing on successes 3. Extrapolating results from studies to humans 4. Saying that clinical trials are unnecessary to prove effectiveness 5. Confirmation bias, selection bias, fact people would only post successes and not failures on social media 6. I’m a 22-year old marketing major with no formal degree in any kind of scientific study. Furthermore, marketing is in my opinion the easiest of the business majors. I feel like that generally covers it. Over this thread, I’ve addressed all of those topics, and in my report I address many of the problems as well. Let me try to give a small summary about why I say cannabis extracts can reliably eliminate cancer in humans and control the majority of disease. 1. There are studies showing endocannabinoids, phytocannabinoids, and synthetic cannabinoids kill virtually any kind of cancer cell through a wide variety of mechanisms - changing gene expressions, modifying enzymatic processes, inducing apoptosis through receptor-dependent and independent mechanisms, and inhibiting angiogenesis. Even within each of those general categories, there are so many ways cannabinoids work. 2. Cannabinoids are already used widely within the human body to regulate critical processes. The body is programmed to use them. Even anandamide, an endocannabinoid produced by the body, kills cancer cells. This, combined with the fact that many cancer cells have higher expressions of cannabinoid receptors, suggests that the body is designed to have cannabinoids kill cancer cells. For example, anandamide and THC alike both induce apoptosis in the PC3 line of prostate cancer. 3. Studies also show that cannabinoids are therapeutically effective against virtually any disease, and because the endocannabinoid system seemingly acts as the systemic regulator of homeostasis in the body, it makes sense that cannabinoid medicine would heal nearly anything. When the body falls out of balance, which would result in disease, phytocannabinoids work through the endocannabinoid system to restore balance and eliminate disease. This is only theory, but it would explain why cannabinoid medicine is healing all these diseases in practice. Science has shown a potential way through which these miraculous healing properties could work, and people are actually doing it. 4. I’m not ignoring the failures. I’ve known many caregivers over the years, and when they’ve treated dozens to hundreds of people, the majority are successes. The few failures I’ve heard have been shared by people on forums and social media. I can’t say that there aren’t many other failures I haven’t heard about, but all the evidence from what people have posted, the dramatic nature of their recoveries, and the results of caregivers suggests that there isn’t a huge bank of failures being ignored. 5. I’ve seen this play out for over five and a half years. If this didn’t work, it wouldn’t have come this far. I could’ve told you when I was in high school that cannabis medicine would probably control any kind of epilepsy, including rare, severe forms. In fact, I think I was still in high school, or at most freshman year of college, when I helped get oil to a man with a severe form of epilepsy. He went longer without seizures on that oil than he had either in many months or years. 6. I have personally spoken with dozens upon dozens of patients over the last several years. It’s abundantly apparent to anyone who actually **speaks** with patients that these aren’t coincidences, and that the cannabis is really helping. Nothing, absolutely nothing, can replace talking with that many patients. It is that personal experience that lets me **know** cannabis extracts work in these ways. On top of that, I’ve seen doctors get involved that are now eliminating cancer in humans, dispensaries, corporations… I’ve seen it grow so much, from starting with literally just one video. This could not have happened if it didn’t work. 7. I personally tracked a close family friend who had aggressive prostate cancer as he used cannabis extract medicine, and the cancer was gone in six months. I’ve also followed the progress of terminal cancer patients who went into remission. 8. Top doctors are calling for the same things I am. You all have said that at best, these preliminary results should maybe result in clinical trials. I have said that we have enough for people to start using this medicine immediately, and we can’t wait. You have brought up concerns about safety, efficacy, etc. But the University of Utah’s top pediatric neurologist said that high-CBD medicine must be available to children with epilepsy as soon as possible. He didn’t say that the results indicate we must move this to clinical trials or that it shows great promise. He said _should be available as soon as possible to Utah children with severe epilepsy._ According to you all, this is the incorrect approach, but it is the one both myself and this doctor advocate. This is a crazy world - why of all the alternative treatments, this one turned out to be the real miracle, is impossible to say. But this is real. This is a _miraculous_ medicine. This is the evidence of the real power of nature. As I’ve said, this breaks the rules of science. No medicine should feasibly work for so much so well. Someone mentioned a law that the more conditions a medicine is claimed to work for, the less effective it is. That’s a law that is blatantly broken by cannabis medicine - it works for nearly anything with miraculous effectiveness. That’s one of the elements which makes this so different. I just remembered, someone was taking my phrase “This is the kind of disconnected thinking that is problematic” out of context, apparently attributing it to me responding to the University logic professor. I was saying that science has created a disconnection between you all and the patients. You completely dismiss their testimonies, saying they are worthless and meaningless and nobody should make decisions based off what they’ve gone through. **That** is a serious problem and a serious lack of compassion. If you all would actually read my report, you would see that each and every case is special in its own way, and contributes undeniable value to my claims. These experiences also are very clear cut. I’ve seen other alternative medicine testimonies where you really can’t tell if it was the alternative treatment that did it, or if it was something else. Or there were mixed results, or it was used directly alongside traditional treatment every time. This is completely different - the results are on a whole different level. For example, there is Josh, a patient of River Rock with Behcet’s disease and Stevens-Johnson syndrome. No pharmaceuticals were working to control these extremely rare diseases, and he was in immense suffering. He now has gotten off the majority or all his pharmaceuticals, and is controlling his conditions with River Rock’s cannabis. He stated that every doctor he’s seen, including those from NYU, Johns Hopkins, and University of Colorado, agree his current state is an absolute miracle and the only explanation is his cannabis usage. It’s clear in Josh’s case that it wasn’t something else which led to his miraculous recovery. He started using a product for which scientific foundations suggested there may be benefit, and there was. It’s that simple. And it has kept happening over and over for years, and it’s not going to stop. What exists is enough for people to put their hope into this medicine and for people to begin using it immediately. And more doctors are starting to see this reality, like the top University of Utah doctor. This thread is so perfect in so many ways. Once things begin to change, it will be a great tool for illustrating the dangers of limited thinking and why we need to truly realize our own power. I’m really happy with how this has gone 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684/241 "2013-11-14T23:10:44Z")
In marketing, when you start to believe your own bullshit you’ve lost. Save the "If I smile a lot I can convince them that I’m a winner!’ pablum for your true believer forums, because that doesn’t work with an educated audience. You’ve even managed to turn away those who supported your cause with your wild claims. You lost here big time-you know it, and we know it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cannabis-extracts-for-the-primary-treatment-of-cancer-epilepsy-and-more/673684.md?page=13)