# Can't find a job? You aren't looking hard enough! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 21, 2017, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887 "2017-09-21T13:20:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zetetic_Skeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/61 "2017-09-21T17:07:53Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The point is that if you live in an area with a glut of people able to a particular job a job seeker has little to no negotiating power. Period. Yes, you can always discuss a skill, make an argument, but the other side is under no obligation to listen. They might even decide to take someone less skilled because that person will accept a lower wage. Not sure where we disagree here. I’m just of the opinion that everything is negotiable. Might not go your way, but let’s say for instance that I get the job at this grocery store behind the meat counter. As a customer, I’ve dealt with several meat counter people who didn’t seem to care about what I wanted or even about being there. Doesn’t make me want to come back. If I do a better job, make the customers happy, retain loyal customers, etc., do you not think I have a bargaining chip with the management? The goal is to get and maintain customers, right? So they pay some dolt who doesn’t give a shit 8.50 an hour, or they pay me more and get better results. I didn’t say it was a given, but if you work hard, you can always negotiate. If they choose someone who’ll accept a lower wage, perhaps they get sub-par results. You get what you pay for. > [@Broomstick](#): > > The employers _don’t give a fuck_ about the employees’ convenience or coordinating schedules. They really don’t. A business makes decisions based on _their_ needs, not the employees. Sure, they’re aware of employees having another job, it doesn’t matter and it won’t affect scheduling. If the PT employee can’t make business A’s schedule it doesn’t matter the reason - they’re gone. There will be no consideration that the employee is trying to keep both employer A and employer B happy. > > You clearly have not attempted to work two jobs on the lower end of the socio-economic scale these days. Employees are disposable. There’s always another person looking for work who will take over. So ethics matter to your employer, but no other employer out there has any ethics or cares about the welfare of his/her/their employees? That’s a pretty big assumption. You’re painting all employers except yours with a very broad and off-color brush. Might reel that one back in a bit. Makes me wonder then how it’s even possible, based on your statement, that anybody can work two jobs at once. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, more than 7.8 million people as of 2016 were working two or more jobs. Sound like an awful lot of care and accommodation from more than just your employer. Unless your employer hired all of those people. Employees are not disposable unless they fail to provide a valuable service. A good employee who helps the company make money and doesn’t cause problems is an asset, therefore, I don’t think they would be considered disposable. However, if they were never there on time, took way too many days off, or just in general didn’t give a hoot about their job, then I think disposable fits a little better. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Yeah, my current store employs several hearing-impaired people, one with cerebral palsy, another who is mentally slow, and several employees in their 80’s, including one still working full time. That’s great. They’ve also [del]fired[/del] let go several with back problems, knee problems, and wrist problems. Sometimes a disability really is incompatible with a job If you’re _lucky_ an employer will make accommodations but many don’t and some don’t even bother to cover that up. There are laws to combat discrimination based on the “isms.” That doesn’t mean some employers don’t find ways around them. What else can you do in these situations? > [@Broomstick](#): > > Just because the US elected a black man as president doesn’t mean prejudice against black people has magically disappeared. It’s real. Likewise, all those other forms of discrimination are real. It makes it harder to find work. That’s a reality. If you’re a white, able-bodied Christian male you might have some difficulties but everyone else has MORE difficulties. I agree with you on this. But that is the world in which we live and wishing it away isn’t going to do anything to help anyone. As the old assholes die off and as society trends more toward shunning people with these attitudes, this will continue to die off. > [@Broomstick](#): > > It can be surprisingly hard to get in the door where I work _because_ they don’t discriminate, there’s enormous competition to get in, which means the employer really can pick and choose who they hire and don’t have to negotiate. Because ethics matter to the owners they really do hire in a diverse manner based on capability. Not everyone does that, not everyone is ethical. So you’re saying by being more inclusive and ethical, your company actually makes it more difficult and competitive to get a job there? Seems like people have to apply with marketable skills, a good attitude and generally be a good and likable person to work there. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Failure to pay people for work done is THEFT. Stealing from people is wrong _regardless_ of whether they here legally or not. Subjecting employees to unsafe working conditions is wrong _regardless_ of whether or not those employees are here legally or illegally. > > It really paints you in a bad light that you seem to be OK with abusing people. How you jump to the conclusion that I’m okay with abusing people is really absurd. My question was, do they or do they not know that this is a potential hazard of being in a country illegally and working for someone under the table? Not anywhere did I say that I’m okay with abusing people. I simply made that comment to illustrate that we live in a world where this happens and that is a risk they are taking. If they had a green card and worked legally, they would have recourse. Since they don’t, they can’t. Wonder what would happen if I was buying drugs and the dealer took my money without giving me my drugs. At best, I get laughed at and told to get the hell out of there. At worst, I get arrested for doing something ILLEGAL. > [@Broomstick](#): > > …And that’s why I know you’re a white male. > > Yes, EVENTUALLY a person will be able to find work, but all those “isms” put a person at a disadvantage and it takes them longer to find work… and meanwhile, they still need to eat and have somewhere to sleep. > > The biases _really do_ impact people. It just makes everything harder. > > Then add kids into the mix and things really get crazy. As pointed out - who is watching the kids while you work, and how much does that cost? > > A single, young, healthy person can find work of some sort, even work multiple jobs, but there are millions of people who don’t fit that description. Biases do exist. I’m not arguing that they don’t. Nor am I arguing that they don’t affect people. But you can’t use that as an excuse to give up. And you are right. I am a white male. But I can’t change who I am or my skin color. I didn’t make any of this about race. I originally and still believe it has everything to do with character, morality, ethics, drive and determination. That’s why America elected its first black president. I didn’t agree with his politics, but I respect him for what he was able to accomplish. He’s already accomplished more in his life than I can ever hope to and that makes him someone to look to as a role model, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zetetic_Skeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/62 "2017-09-21T17:09:10Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > I can’t save a damn dime. Being laid off for six years with an ailing elderly mother has left me teetering on bankruptcy. > > And your question is precisely my point. You say that “ism’s” as in ageism are not a major impediment to finding employment, but I say you’re fooling yourself. Of course, a company has a legitimate concern that a prospective employee can do the work involved, and may not ask such bold questions about physical limitations because of fears of liability. Therefore, the older candidate doesn’t get hired because of assumed conclusions of his or her physical capability which is not getting hired because of ageism. Case closed. It happens all the time, therefore an “ism” is a major impediment while job searching. > > Yes, we can still be friends. But open your eyes. But you didn’t let that stop you!🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/63 "2017-09-21T17:13:49Z")
A while back, I tried to move to Manchester, England, having just got back from a year overseas. I went round all the websites, bought the local paper (hey, they still had ads!) got friends to keep an eye out for ads in windows for me. It all looked very promising; there were new jobs popping up every day, lots of stuff apparently available, way better than in the little town I’d moved from. I applied for about 40 jobs over the first month. Everything I could find; cleaning, fast food, retail… Ringing up, dropping in, emailing… Signed up for two temp agencies. I didn’t even get a single call back. I remember one of the places I called (I think it was an independent retail place) being very nice, and wishing me luck, saying the job had gone within 20 minutes of the ad going live, and they’d already had over 40 applicants and had just taken the ad down, 4 hours after putting it up. Right before I left, at the end of the month, (having burned through half my savings and realised my live-in-landlord was creepy as hell, but that’s another story) I got three days work via one of the agencies, doing a one-off survey counting cars for a car park management company (though in fairness, the agency actually called me back asking if I was still looking for work because they had something perfect for me… 6 years later). That was it. I’m actually looking again for part time work right now, as I’ve just gone back to University as a mature student. At first glance, there’s not much work around, but there aren’t many people looking either. We shall see. ---
**Author:** ![Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zetetic_Skeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/64 "2017-09-21T17:14:07Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > You answered your own question. I put in the qualifier that I had the luxury of being picky right now. I have a good job so I don’t need to settle. There’s a big difference between that position and one where I had no job, no income, a family to support and chose to complain that a company won’t hire me at what I think is right for me. In that case, I don’t get the luxury of complaining what companies will and won’t do for me. ---
**Author:** ![Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zetetic_Skeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/65 "2017-09-21T17:20:01Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > You’re in for a shock. If you call or show up at the store and ask to speak to a manager, they will hand you a card with a link to their online application, if you’re lucky. Then they will most likely throw your resume in the trash. Unless you personally know someone who works there, who can vouch for you in person to the hiring manager and bypass the bureaucracy, applying online is the _only_ way. This isn’t the 80s anymore, and “hitting the bricks” is not how you get a job these days. > > (Unless you are out in public at 5:00 am and the local lawn care guy needs to hire someone yesterday, as in the other poster’s anecdote, but situations like that are few and far between, and not the basis of an intelligent job search strategy.) Hasn’t been my experience so far. I spoke with the manager at two pizza joints, one over the phone and one in person. Indeed, they did ask me to fill out an application. Just got a call to set up an interview for tomorrow with one. Waiting on another to review. Maybe they call, maybe they don’t. But I did put forth a better effort than applying through a job board. The grocery store I went to, I walked around until I saw an employee wearing business casual, approached him, and asked if they were looking for any part time help. He stated they were, told me what it was, talked with me for a few minutes, then asked me to go online, fill out the application and to call him when it was done so he could pull it. Maybe he looks throws it in the trash, but not sure why he would ask me to call him personally if he had no intentions of looking at it. Hitting the bricks seems to be working for me. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/66 "2017-09-21T17:21:05Z")
The OP is overlooking some likely possibilities. If a company has two job openings and twenty people apply for them, eighteen people won’t get hired. Were those eighteen people not trying to find work? According to the OP’s logic, not getting a job is their fault because the company was hiring. ---
**Author:** ![Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zetetic_Skeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/67 "2017-09-21T17:23:40Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Well, if you haven’t found one, you must not be actively looking. Hence my statement. > > After all, jobs are easy to find, as per you. A person who isn’t as employed as they want to be would never be ignorant enough to say something like that. Are you even reading anything that’s been posted so far? It’s been three days since I started looking. ---
**Author:** ![Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zetetic_Skeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/68 "2017-09-21T17:29:06Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Do people not realize that managers have actual jobs which take time to complete, and are not in the business of responding to every entitled yahoo who takes a notion to walk in the door demanding to see one? > > I realize this will likely fall on deaf ears, but striding into a business as if you have an actual reason to be there just to bother and harass someone into giving you a job is, get this, _not a good way to get hired_. That kind of “courage” is the courage of all pushy imbeciles, and will be rewarded as such. It states loud and clear that you have no respect for the time of others, and are incapable of following even the simplest rules if they inconvenience you. That’s certainly an opinion you can express, but by no means is it correct when talking about high turnover places for part time work. Some people might be annoyed, sure. But it also show initiative. I can assure you, I didn’t go in there barging in or demand anything. Both of the managers I spoke with seemed interested to let me know they did have positions available and spoke with me longer than they would have if what you are saying is true. Deaf ears maybe, but deaf ears soon to be with a second job which is just what I was looking to accomplish. ---
**Author:** ![Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zetetic_Skeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/69 "2017-09-21T17:37:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The OP is overlooking some likely possibilities. > > If a company has two job openings and twenty people apply for them, eighteen people won’t get hired. Were those eighteen people not trying to find work? According to the OP’s logic, not getting a job is their fault because the company was hiring. That’s stretching it a bit. That’s one position. If at first you don’t succeed… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/70 "2017-09-21T17:42:40Z")
> [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](#): > > Not sure where we disagree here. I’m just of the opinion that everything is negotiable. Might not go your way, but let’s say for instance that I get the job at this grocery store behind the meat counter. As a customer, I’ve dealt with several meat counter people who didn’t seem to care about what I wanted or even about being there. Doesn’t make me want to come back. If I do a better job, make the customers happy, retain loyal customers, etc., do you not think I have a bargaining chip with the management? Nope. That’s not going to get you in the door. To even get to an interview you have to apply on line, get through that hoop, then get past a phone screening and a background check. THEN you might get an interview. At that point you can argue about customer service skills, etc. but it won’t get you a penny more in starting pay. It just won’t. It might be the difference between getting hired and not getting hired but you won’t get even a penny more in starting pay. There are a LOT of people out there with comparable skills, the employer gets to pick and choose and if they choice is between two equally competent candidates the one willing to accept the lower wage is likely to get the job. If you want to hold out for more starting pay you certainly can, but it might work against you. AFTER your first six months being able to retain customers might give you a tiny bargaining chip… but salaries aren’t set by local management, they’re set by Corporate, which is located in a different state and who will never see you or speak with you. They’ll want verifiable numbers, that’s it. If you do well enough customers will say nice things about you to the store that may count in your favor. If you’re claiming you’re doing a significantly better job than everyone else you better back it up with hard numbers and data or you’ll be ignored… and they’ll you’ll be asked how you found the time to look up all this stuff while actually doing your job. > [@](#): > > The goal is to get and maintain customers, right? So they pay some dolt who doesn’t give a shit 8.50 an hour, or they pay me more and get better results. The dolt gets fired before his probationary period is up. IF you get hired you also start at $8.50/hour and if you do a good job you’ll get more hours because you probably won’t start full time. Even if you did start full time you’d still be only getting $8.50/hour until after the first six months, at which point you’ll get the teeny incremental increase everyone competent gets. That’s reality. If you’re a good worker you don’t get a raise, you simply get to keep your job. If you’re a bad worker you get let go. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say it was a given, but if you work hard, you can always negotiate. If they choose someone who’ll accept a lower wage, perhaps they get sub-par results. You get what you pay for. They don’t have to pay more for better-than-par because there are so damn many competent people looking for work. > [@](#): > > So ethics matter to your employer, but no other employer out there has any ethics or cares about the welfare of his/her/their employees? That’s a pretty big assumption. You’re painting all employers except yours with a very broad and off-color brush. Do consider that the job immediately prior to my current one I left because a coworker attempted to attack me with a hammer and the owner didn’t give a fuck and wouldn’t do anything about it. The one immediately prior to that I had to take into court to get the wages I was entitled to. There really are some extremely unethical business people out there. That said, you are distorting what I said - I never said no one else was ethical, I said there were a lot of unethical businesses out there. Which is true, at all levels. That statement, since it does not include “all”, also implies multiple ethical businesses. > [@](#): > > Might reel that one back in a bit. Makes me wonder then how it’s even possible, based on your statement, that anybody can work two jobs at once. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, more than 7.8 million people as of 2016 were working two or more jobs. Sound like an awful lot of care and accommodation from more than just your employer. Unless your employer hired all of those people. A lot of those people are working “gig” jobs like Uber. A lot of those people take on the second job and try to make it work, knowing that eventually there will be a schedule conflict that will cost them one of those two jobs. A lot of people DO have a problem juggling two jobs. My statement that employers don’t give a fuck, by and large, is not incompatible with less than 3 percent of the population holding down two jobs at once. For now. > [@](#): > > Employees are not disposable unless they fail to provide a valuable service. Incorrect. When there is a ready source of more employees then employees are disposable. > [@](#): > > A good employee who helps the company make money and doesn’t cause problems is an asset, therefore, I don’t think they would be considered disposable. However, if they were never there on time, took way too many days off, or just in general didn’t give a hoot about their job, then I think disposable fits a little better. If an employee can no longer be available to fill a needed shift it doesn’t matter how good an employee that person is, they’re no longer employed at that job. In my case, I have an employer that runs 24/7 so they need people for all shifts. Which makes it a little easier. Not every company is that flexible. > [@](#): > > There are laws to combat discrimination based on the “isms.” That doesn’t mean some employers don’t find ways around them. What else can you do in these situations? You can tweak your resume to minimize signs of your age. You can alter how you present your name to minimize how “ethic” it sounds to get your foot in the door. There are a bunch of strategies but it would probably deserve another thread. What is impracticable is actually bringing the law down on violators unless you have some sort of solid assistance (like maybe the ACLU is doing a sting). Job seekers usually don’t have the resources to bring people into court, and usually don’t have solid enough evidence to hold up to court scrutiny. That’s how businesses get away with that shit. > [@](#): > > I agree with you on this. But that is the world in which we live and wishing it away isn’t going to do anything to help anyone. As the old assholes die off and as society trends more toward shunning people with these attitudes, this will continue to die off. What in the hell makes you think it is OLD assholes who do this? Plenty of young bigots for the next generation or two. > [@](#): > > So you’re saying by being more inclusive and ethical, your company actually makes it more difficult and competitive to get a job there? Seems like people have to apply with marketable skills, a good attitude and generally be a good and likable person to work there. The problem is that the company is known to be fair in hiring so a LOT of people apply there - there is enormous competition to get hired. Any open slot gets HUNDREDS of applications, including for jobs like scrubbing the toilets. Fortunately, they are doing well and expanding so they can hired a lot of people. It’s not the company that causes the competition, it’s everyone else trying to get a job, too. > [@](#): > > How you jump to the conclusion that I’m okay with abusing people is really absurd. My question was, do they or do they not know that this is a potential hazard of being in a country illegally and working for someone under the table? Well, fuck, getting stuck in a train car on a railroad siding and left to die of heat stroke is a risk for those folks, too. It _shouldn’t_ be a hazard. Your acceptance of this as “well, that’s the way the world is” is what makes me think you’re OK with it. They aren’t you, so you just don’t care if they’re stolen from, maimed, or killed. > [@](#): > > Biases do exist. I’m not arguing that they don’t. Nor am I arguing that they don’t affect people. But you can’t use that as an excuse to give up. There you go again - you REFUSE to discuss real barriers to employment. Discussing them is NOT “giving up”. Failure to recognize them can result in longer unemployment. This is what’s so damn frustrating about white male privilege - you treat even the MENTION of real barriers as “giving up”. Let me tell you, _ignoring_ “isms” don’t make them go away. You _have to_ see them, recognize them, and come up with a strategy to minimize their impact (you can’t actually eliminate the impact entirely). But that doesn’t matter to you, because it doesn’t affect you. Yet. (At some point at the very least ageism is going to start hurting you) It wasn’t until I recognized how ageism was hurting me _and took steps to deal with it_ that I even got an interview. If you don’t deal with the biases they WILL hurt you. It’s not about lack of effort or giving up - maybe if we were more honest about this some of the people affects by these biases would get employed sooner rather than later. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/71 "2017-09-21T17:45:42Z")
> [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](#): > > That’s stretching it a bit. That’s one position. If at first you don’t succeed… no it isn’t. you’re proceeding from the shaky assumption that there is 1 job available per job seeker out there. ---
**Author:** ![Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zetetic_Skeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/72 "2017-09-21T17:50:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > RAAAAARGH! BROOMSTICK SMASH!!! Glad I wasn’t drinking anything when I read that! > [@Broomstick](#): > > WTF do think constitutes the “public teat” these days? I’m not sure how much more clear I can make this. I’m talking about the people who choose to let others pay their way and don’t make an effort. This is one of those “If the shoe fits” situations. Just seems there are a lot of people with appropriately sized shoes. > [@Broomstick](#): > > In all seriousness - have you considered something like Uber or Lyft or even something like [grocery shopping and delivering?](https://www.shipt.com/) You can set your own hours so you don’t have to worry about the part time job conflicting with your main job. For some people it works out really well. For others… not so much. Look into the “gig economy”, for someone such as yourself it could be a good option. No matter how much we disagree or go at each other, you’re cool with me. This little nugget is very classy of you given our back and forth. You still might think I’m clueless, but I like you anyway!😃 > [@Broomstick](#): > > The problem is that some businesses ONLY want you to use the job board. Going in, in person, and trying to talk to someone might actually work _against_ you, because you’re demonstrating you won’t follow their given directions. It could, but I’m willing to take that risk. I believe employers want to see initiative which is something you cannot demonstrate effectively via resume submission. One thing I always hear about job hunting is the necessity to make yourself stand out from the crowd. I’ll take my chances hitting the bricks! > [@Broomstick](#): > > The difference between you and that training program was that the program didn’t deny real problems. There was frank talk about racism and ageism _and how to deal with that_ during a job search rather than simply denying its existence. There was discussion of how to apply to different sorts of jobs, when to go on line and how, when to go in person and how. These are realities. Don’t deny them. Don’t treat mentioning them as an excuse. For millions of people they are real issues. Far more constructive is discussing how to get a job _despite_ being a less than perfect candidate. I’m sure I’ve come across to many of you that I’m denying these realities. But I’ve tried to make clear that I acknowledge their existence and if nothing else, I’m saying right now: I do acknowledge that “isms” exist and are real. I do acknowledge that they do affect people. I just know there are things that can be done to overcome obstacles. Don’t use them as excuses. Use them as fuel. At the end of the day, if you have a marketable skill, even something as simple as a smile and a good attitude, there are many places willing to give you a chance. ---
**Author:** ![BeeGee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@BeeGee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeeGee)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/73 "2017-09-21T17:52:11Z")
About 25 years ago, I was going through a divorce and I quit teaching school. Life was definitely in the crapper. I was living in a one room shack that had a combined closet/bathroom/restroom for $75.00 a month. I applied for every job I could find. I had waitress and food service experience, but they wouldn’t hire me. I passed all the clerical tests, but no one would hire me to work in an office. I ended up temping for several agencies for about six months until someone finally offered me a job. Well, she didn’t exactly “offer” I pretty much begged. She was giving me the same reason everyone else was: You have a degree. You don’t want this job. You’ll quit in a week. I have a friend who had a fairly high level IT job. He’s running into the same situation. He’s over-qualified and people won’t hire him. ---
**Author:** ![Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zetetic_Skeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/74 "2017-09-21T17:57:59Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > no it isn’t. you’re proceeding from the shaky assumption that there is 1 job available per job seeker out there. “First” necessitates a second. So on and so forth. It would be like this. If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. If you don’t succeed the second time, try, try again. If you don’t succeed the third time, try, try again. If you don’t succeed the fourth time, try, try again. I may have dense moments, but surely you don’t think I mean to keep trying to apply for the same job over and over again, right? If not, the only logical conclusion would be that job seeker tries somewhere else. Meaning job seeker has multiple opportunities available, not 1 job per job seeker. The only other way to interpret what you’ve said is that I believe there is a 1:1 ratio of job seekers to jobs available. I don’t think I said that or implied it in anything I’ve said. If I’m wrong please show me. ---
**Author:** ![Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zetetic_Skeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/75 "2017-09-21T18:14:03Z")
> [@BeeGee](#): > > About 25 years ago, I was going through a divorce and I quit teaching school. Life was definitely in the crapper. I was living in a one room shack that had a combined closet/bathroom/restroom for $75.00 a month. I applied for every job I could find. I had waitress and food service experience, but they wouldn’t hire me. I passed all the clerical tests, but no one would hire me to work in an office. I ended up temping for several agencies for about six months until someone finally offered me a job. Well, she didn’t exactly “offer” I pretty much begged. She was giving me the same reason everyone else was: You have a degree. You don’t want this job. You’ll quit in a week. > > I have a friend who had a fairly high level IT job. He’s running into the same situation. He’s over-qualified and people won’t hire him. I know this is an issue. I’ve even run into it myself both from a hiring and searching perspective. I guess one way to combat this would be to dumb down your resume a bit. Tweak it to minimize your skills. Hiring and training costs time and money. Both things companies don’t want to waste. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/76 "2017-09-21T19:33:00Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > What does that have to do with price of tea in China? If a job pays $10 per hour, it pays $10 per hour. One’s wage doesn’t depend on how many kids he has. I agree that’s in a large sense a non-sequitur, ‘you can’t support a family on that wage’. Not everyone has to support a family on one job. And if one doesn’t have much prospect for a good paying job, that might reasonably factor into a decision to start a family. Though I guess some would class the second idea as ‘heartless’ if not some kind of ‘ism’. IMO it’s just a practical reality for some people. And again it’s kind of another topic anyway whether there should be collective action (redistribution) on the principal that it’s a ‘right’ to earn a wage that can support a family (but on how many paychecks with how many dependents?). At some level it’s just sloganeering that gets dumped into a conversation like this on autopilot I think. That said, one big explanation for the existence of any ‘natural’ rate of unemployment is that it doesn’t necessarily make sense for everyone to jump on the kind of unskilled jobs that are usually available due to turnover. If one has specific skills it might make more sense to keep looking for jobs which remunerate them. It’s always some kind of balancing act. Work ethic and the welfare state’s corrosive effect on it\* are one factor, I view as extreme or blindered people who won’t accept that. But conversely it can seem the same to insist it’s _just_ a matter of work ethic that some people remain unemployed. \*IMO a necessary evil of the welfare state, doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be one or any real possibility there ever again won’t be one. It’s here to stay. Changes at the margin are the practical debate. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/77 "2017-09-21T20:47:50Z")
Around here (Middle Tennessee, outside of Nashville) warehouse jobs start at about $13.50 for someone with no experience. Full time, with benefits the day you start. Fast food pays around $10/hr, I think. Every place is hiring. My whse director can’t keep people (who can pass a drug test) for 3 months at $13.50. StG ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/78 "2017-09-21T22:20:00Z")
> [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](#): > > But you didn’t let that stop you!🙂 As I’ve said, the ONLY reason I have the job I have now, permanent and with benefits is that I worked at that same company for TWELVE YEARS BEFORE I WAS LAID OFF. It has NOTHING to do with my not letting things stop me. Things were stopped for SIX GODDAMN YEARS. For those six years I survived on temp jobs, severance, 401K decimation, unemployment, and credit cards. Improve myself? Fuck!! I took some online college courses and wound up with $38,000 in extra debt for nothing worthwhile. I’ll be paying until I die. :)??? More like :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/79 "2017-09-21T22:32:55Z")
Guys, we’re obviously dealing with an entry-level-job-getting _player_. I think we could all learn something here. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887/80 "2017-09-21T22:33:17Z")
> [@Zetetic\_Skeptic](#): > > Meaning job seeker has multiple opportunities available, not 1 job per job seeker. And so do the other 10s, 100s, 1000s, of people looking for a job. I confess, I use the same logic as you when I see that one guy out with a sign asking for money. There are help wanted signs up and down the retail/food service strip. And a shelter nearby who would probably let him use their mailing address. But that’s one guy, who’s presumably single and not trying to support a family. If it were an area with a lot more people and higher unemployment, I wouldn’t have a leg to stand on. And I mean at least HAVE a new job before saying how easy it is to get one! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-find-a-job-you-arent-looking-hard-enough/796887.md?page=5)