# can't represent yourself in court because it's a "drug charge"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 5, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666 "2017-12-05T22:53:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/21 "2017-12-06T04:01:00Z")
> [@mr\_horsepower](#): > > \*he wouldn’t tell me what the substance was, from my asking him & trying to guess several times, i wanna say it was something from an adult novelty store, possibly a head shop. It may not matter that he’s being cagey with you, but if he ever does get a lawyer representing him, he needs to be open and honest with the lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/22 "2017-12-06T05:14:48Z")
There is definately something screwy with the pill bottle/oily substance. Kid is hiding something, for sure. If it was an innocent substance why won’t he tell you what it is? He’s not gonna be able to bullshit his way at court. They are gonna need for him to tell what it is. If it doesn’t match the lab tests then he has screwed the pooch. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/23 "2017-12-06T05:34:10Z")
> [@mr\_horsepower](#): > > if someone is charged with a crime, under what circumstances can they be forbid to represent themselves? > > does that answer change if it’s a “drug crime”? > > if they expressed desire to act as their own counsel, can they be forbid to even enter a not guilty plea without a lawyer present, with the judge explaining ‘he won’t allow people charged with a drug crime to represent themselves’ and, when he said he wanted to represent himself, the judge saying ‘try showing back up without an attorney next time & I’ll put you in jail until can find one’. > > \*this is a friend of mines son who’s been charged, my friend having sat in on his attempt to enter a plea & then relaying to me what she heard the judge tell her son. > > \*i have no dog in this fight, i just find it surprising and kinda unbelievable. i always thought representing one’s self was a right. > > \*i don’t care to hear whether or not it’s a good idea, i know it’s not. just whether or not the judge can do that or not. > > - if it matters, it was a pot charge. he’s recently an adult, no trouble before. This cries out for a response by George Carlin. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/24 "2017-12-06T07:32:47Z")
He may legally be an adult, but your son’s friend is acting like a kid. Still, he may be onto something: It turns out those roadside tests for cannabinoids may be unreliable. From a 2016 [NYT article](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/magazine/how-a-2-roadside-drug-test-sends-innocent-people-to-jail.html): > [@](#): > > Oddly enough, there is even a field test for marijuana—handy when testing bricks to see if they’re made of hash or black tar heroin. Known as the Duquenois-Levine test, it uses Vanillin—vanilla’s chemical flavor base—in the same manner as the Marquis test, however it uses hydrochloric acid rather than sulfuric. If there’s THC present, the solution turns purple. **The problem with the Duquenois-Levine test however is its high rate of false positives**. THC isn’t the only compound that turns purple in the test solution. Chinese motherwort and 25 other species of plants also turn violet. [Bolding is mine.] The article says that some states require cops to back up roadside tests with lab analysis, but cops might not do so if the defendant pleads guilty. (Because, I assume, they already have a guilty plea: who needs a test?) Whether your local cops use the Duquenois-Levine test, what your state’s laws are, and what the local PD’s track record is are things an attorney would be better equipped to determine. But the Kid should read the article. Then he should call an attorney. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/25 "2017-12-06T09:14:52Z")
He knows what the substance is but won’t tell you? Possibly from a head shop? This kid gets a lawyer or goes to jail is my guess. If the state has to pay for the lab work to prove it, they won’t be inclined to let him off easy is my thought. His refusal to identify the substance will very much count against him, I think. Sounds very much like he thinks he can bullshit his way through this, thinks he knows a way to squirm out of it. I’d say he’s about to learn a painful life lesson. So he smashed up his car, was caught driving around with the smell of pot in his car, and a substance he refuses to identify. Likely illegal from a headshop.Tries to wiseguy cops telling demanding they test in front of him, um no. Is such an ass in court the judge threatens him with contempt. It seems he arrogantly thought he could manipulate the cops and the court, to be honest. Sounds like this kid could use a life lesson to be perfectly honest. Step back and let this kid learn something important, sounds like the best advice to me. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/26 "2017-12-06T09:37:47Z")
This “kid” can’t be facing any consequential jail time over this, can he? ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/27 "2017-12-06T09:54:27Z")
Pure speculation: The substance may be [Cannabidiol oil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol). I’ve seen various claims that it’s not illegal because it contains no THC. That may possible be the case, but I’m not sure I’d risk being arrested on the word of a few websites. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_horsepower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@mr\_horsepower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_horsepower)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/28 "2017-12-06T11:33:00Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > In [Faretta v. California](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/422/806/case.html) the Supreme Court said a defendant can refuse counsel when he when he **“voluntarily and intelligently elects to do so.”** > > Seems to me the judge decided the kid’s decision to not get a lawyer was not made “intelligently.” Based on **mr horsepower** ’s account (the kid was found with a prescription container with an oily fluid on it that the kid swears was not cannabis but can’t say what it was) I’d say the judge is making the right call. Even a bad lawyer would probably get this worked out with the DA in an hour. If the kid insists on going to court and representing himself he’ll try to argue that the test was bogus. He’ll lose because the cops will swear the test was done by the numbers, and who are you going to believe. > > So the kid can hire a cheap lawyer now, or hire an expensive one for the appeal. i guess if the judge is the sole decider of “intelligently” and there’s no other vetting or determination process, then I’d say that part’s settled. I’m just not sure that that’s the case. worth noting is the fact that they (the d.a.) were going to allow him to act as his own counsel if he wanted to plead guilty to a lessor charge. it was the not guilty to the judge on the original charge that made him ‘unable’ to represent himself. that seems a bit inconsistent to me. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_horsepower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@mr\_horsepower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_horsepower)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/29 "2017-12-06T11:34:06Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > It may not matter that he’s being cagey with you, but if he ever does get a lawyer representing him, he needs to be open and honest with the lawyer. agreed ---
**Author:** ![mr\_horsepower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@mr\_horsepower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_horsepower)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/30 "2017-12-06T11:42:45Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > There is definately something screwy with the pill bottle/oily substance. Kid is hiding something, for sure. If it was an innocent substance why won’t he tell you what it is? He’s not gonna be able to bullshit his way at court. They are gonna need for him to tell what it is. If it doesn’t match the lab tests then he has screwed the pooch. yep. pretty sketchy indeed. however, i don’t think it’s his responsibility to prove it either is or isn’t something. I’m fairly certain that responsibility lies with them. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_horsepower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@mr\_horsepower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_horsepower)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/31 "2017-12-06T11:53:55Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > This cries out for a response by George Carlin. he was an entertainer & a visionary. only saw him live once. I’ve still got the tshirt somewhere i bought after the show. it’s got his picture on the front & says “simon says go fuck yourself” on the back. - not sure if what you said was meant as a whoosh to me somehow. if so, it was effective, cause i didn’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/32 "2017-12-06T12:16:35Z")
Do a search for “ free lawyer” or pro bono lawyer”, in your area. Or call the nearest law school, they’ll undoubtedly have some sort of law clinic dispensing free advice. Or get mom to call a women’s shelter…they won’t help him, but will probably have the contact of people who will. Or ask around at the Court office, again they can guide him to people who might help. If the Judge is delaying this it means that s/he either thinks the kid is being railroaded or that if a conviction occurs a lengthy sentence is likely. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_horsepower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@mr\_horsepower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_horsepower)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/33 "2017-12-06T12:20:32Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > He may legally be an adult, but your son’s friend is acting like a kid. Still, he may be onto something: It turns out those roadside tests for cannabinoids may be unreliable. From a 2016 [NYT article](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/magazine/how-a-2-roadside-drug-test-sends-innocent-people-to-jail.html): > > [Bolding is mine.] The article says that some states require cops to back up roadside tests with lab analysis, but cops might not do so if the defendant pleads guilty. (Because, I assume, they already have a guilty plea: who needs a test?) Whether your local cops use the Duquenois-Levine test, what your state’s laws are, and what the local PD’s track record is are things an attorney would be better equipped to determine. But the Kid should read the article. Then he should call an attorney. that’s good info, I’ll pass that on if it comes to that. i agree he’s acting like a kid. he is still a kid basically. i did try to share some wisdom with him regarding how this could go wrong & how i would handle it (lawyer), but I’m not going to be the person to tell him to blindly accept everything you’re told in life just because the person telling you whatever it is has a badge or a gavel. there’s far too much evidence out there that, because they’re human, they can be as off base, wrong or scandalous as the next guy, and in some cases, due to the power they have, even more so. so, question authority if you’re so inclined, just do it respectfully. i think we all can recall a day when youthful exuberance & thoughts we were powerful enough to effect change maybe or defend ourselves against ‘injustices by the man’. that was a while back for me. he tried to do that, but did give into their demands. everyone hopefully saw where he did, begrudgingly, hire a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_horsepower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@mr\_horsepower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_horsepower)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/34 "2017-12-06T12:33:34Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > He knows what the substance is but won’t tell you? > > Possibly from a head shop? > > This kid gets a lawyer or goes to jail is my guess. If the state has to pay for the lab work to prove it, they won’t be inclined to let him off easy is my thought. His refusal to identify the substance will very much count against him, I think. > > Sounds very much like he thinks he can bullshit his way through this, thinks he knows a way to squirm out of it. I’d say he’s about to learn a painful life lesson. > > So he smashed up his car, was caught driving around with the smell of pot in his car, and a substance he refuses to identify. Likely illegal from a headshop.Tries to wiseguy cops telling demanding they test in front of him, um no. Is such an ass in court the judge threatens him with contempt. It seems he arrogantly thought he could manipulate the cops and the court, to be honest. Sounds like this kid could use a life lesson to be perfectly honest. > > Step back and let this kid learn something important, sounds like the best advice to me. he didn’t come to me for advice, although i gave him some. I’ve known his mom since we were his age. she came by to visit cause they were in town & since her & i had spoken about this the other day on the phone i just brought it up while she brought family gifts needing wrapped in the house. and you’ll get no argument from me, he’s playing the dumbass kid role very well. but i honestly think my opinions bored him. he didn’t seem to give a rats clitoris what anyone thought but him about the deal. again everyone, he did hire a lawyer, he just tried not to. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/35 "2017-12-06T12:35:22Z")
He should memorize and recite this, loudly, in court. > [@](#): > > You’re out of order! You’re out of order! The whole trial is out of order! They’re out of order! That man, that sick, crazy, depraved man, raped and beat that woman there, and he’d like to do it again! He _told_ me so! It’s just a show! It’s a show! It’s “Let’s Make A Deal”! “Let’s Make A Deal”! Hey Frank, you wanna “Make A Deal”? I got an insane judge who likes to beat the shit out of women! Whaddya wanna gimme Frank, 3 weeks probation? IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_horsepower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@mr\_horsepower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_horsepower)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/36 "2017-12-06T13:06:27Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > This “kid” can’t be facing any consequential jail time over this, can he? probably not. what i told him though was that jails are full of people with ineffective or nonexistent counsel. it’s a situation where they support their own, often for good reason, and trying to circumvent either the people or the processes involved often doesn’t work out well. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_horsepower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@mr\_horsepower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_horsepower)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/37 "2017-12-06T13:19:54Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Pure speculation: The substance may be [Cannabidiol oil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol). > I’ve seen various claims that it’s not illegal because it contains no THC. That may possible be the case, but I’m not sure I’d risk being arrested on the word of a few websites. my pot smoking days are well behind me, so i have absolutely no clue about any of it. i see kayaker had entered this thread. everything I’ve read here indicates that he’s the local pro. so kayaker, any thoughts on what said oily substance could be, if it did test positive for marijuana? \*the police have made that claim, the kid is adamant it’s not of or related. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/38 "2017-12-06T13:50:14Z")
There are oils for sale in PA that have zero THC, supposedly used for medicinal effects. There are also topical creams like this. I do not use nor want any non-psychoactive crap, personally. Worst case scenario he had some canabbinoid. Lawyer up, get it reduced to disturbing the peace. Pay a fine and take a silly “Drugs R Bad” class. * * * When my favorite nephew was 19 he was a passenger in a car that got pulled over. The cop made the four teenagers get out and gave them a stern glare. He said if any of them had any contraband and they voluntarily gave it to him, he’d let them go. My nephew dug a roach out of his pocket and of course got busted. He used his one call to contact me and I helped arrange his lawyer. Piece of (space) cake. He’s 33 now and never told his mom (my sister). ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/39 "2017-12-06T13:58:04Z")
I am relieved to hear he hired a lawyer. Now let’s hope he has the sense to follow HIS advice! Wishing him Good Luck! ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666/40 "2017-12-06T15:27:20Z")
OTOH, having a lot of power does things to the mind of some people. Never underestimate the possibility that the judge is being a dick because he can. He told the guy he should get a lawyer, the kid disregarded his advice, so now he’ll show him who’s boss because an ignorant young kid without a lawyer can’t possibly know let alone argue the finer points of law about whether he can represent himself. it may have started as a warning because the charges are serious, but now it’s become a pissing match and the judge is the bigger dick… Or, he may be trying to do the kid a favour. Also, is this a case of bait and switch? Has the DA filed serious charges on the theory that the kid will roll over and plead to a lesser charge? And the judge does not want a full trial on the worse charge? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-represent-yourself-in-court-because-its-a-drug-charge/803666.md?page=3)