# Can't The RNC Trump the Trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 9, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896 "2015-12-09T02:46:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/61 "2015-12-10T21:38:37Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > Pardon me for asking, but where do you get the number 437? > **[Superdelegates](https://www.infoplease.com/us/government/elections/superdelegates)** > > In some presidential elections, superdelegates can play a major role. > [@](#): > > Out of 2,470 total delegates at the Republican National Convention in 2016, 437 are unpledged delegates, who play the same role as superdelegates. Of the 437, 168 are members of the Republican National Committee. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/62 "2015-12-10T22:50:19Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Can’t let these assertions go unchallenged. The parties lost control of the funding in large part due to campaign finance laws and their limits upon donations that parties can make to federal campaigns. Moreover, presidential elections were publicly funded for thirty years, and it wasn’t the Republicans who broke that system. Depends on your definitions. > [@](#): > > From the inception of this program in 1976 through 1992, almost all candidates who could qualify accepted matching funds in the primary. In 1996 Republican Steve Forbes opted out of the program. In 2000, Forbes and George W. Bush opted out. Public funding wasn’t a system and nobody broke it. It was a travesty of a sham of a mockery that provided less than 10% of actual funds. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/63 "2015-12-10T22:59:04Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Wait, so that doesn’t make sense to me. If Trump runs as a 3rd party, can he still call himself Republican and have the (R) behind his name on the ballot? I was under the impression that while he can call himself whatever he wants, the Reps and Dems have the words “Republican” and “Democrat” trademarked or copyrighted so only they can use it on the ballot. Probably depends on the state. If he runs under a proper Third Party flag he most likely would not be able to use the Republican tag. But if as an independent/write-in, well… as **Some Call Me… Tim** describes the WA case above it would seem to mean that in at least that one case the R/D notation on the ballot means the candidate _identifies himself_ as such, rather than that he is officially endorsed by the party. BTW, in US elections as a rule you vote directly for the candidates for each individual office, as opposed to voting jointly for a party list. In the case of the Presidential you are technically really voting for a slate of electors pledged to the candidate and a respectable candidate would be able to line up such a group with not much difficulty – half the states have 7 or fewer Electors. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/64 "2015-12-10T23:09:17Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Wait, so that doesn’t make sense to me. If Trump runs as a 3rd party, can he still call himself Republican and have the (R) behind his name on the ballot? I was under the impression that while he can call himself whatever he wants, the Reps and Dems have the words “Republican” and “Democrat” trademarked or copyrighted so only they can use it on the ballot. If Trump wants to run in a primary election or go to a state caucus and campaign for delegates, no one can stop him. That’s how the parties are supposed to pick their nominees. But if he isn’t picked (if he doesn’t get enough delegates through the state by state campaign process to win the nomination at the national convention) then he isn’t the Republican nominee, period. If he makes up a third party and runs as a third party candidate (as Ross Perot did), then he’s the candidate of that party and that’s how he’s identified. What the hell they do in Washington state, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/65 "2015-12-11T00:21:40Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It’s not a question of formality; the difference between the two systems is where the money comes from. Candidates in a parliamentary system submit to the party platform because, by and large, the party funds the campaign. In Canada, it’s much more direct than just party funding. A person who wants to run for a party has to win the nomination from the local constituency association. Once nominated, they then have to have their nomination approved by the leader of the party. If the leader of the party doesn’t sign off, the person is not the nominee of the party. It’s only after the nomination that funding comes into the picture. A candidate seeking the nomination foots the bill entirely on their own. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/66 "2015-12-11T02:24:14Z")
This won’t happen, but it’s a fun scenario to imagine. Imagine if Trump runs as an independent and does better than the Republican nominee, essentially making the Republican nominee the third party candidate. It’s fun imagining that scenario with Bush or Rubio in the role of the Republican nominee. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/67 "2015-12-11T02:40:45Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Wait, so that doesn’t make sense to me. If Trump runs as a 3rd party, can he still call himself Republican and have the (R) behind his name on the ballot? I was under the impression that while he can call himself whatever he wants, the Reps and Dems have the words “Republican” and “Democrat” trademarked or copyrighted so only they can use it on the ballot. If Trump were to run for a state or lower level office in Washington State, he could describe his party affiliation as whatever word he chooses, including ‘Republican’ even if the Republican Party didn’t care for him. Like I said earlier, lots of races have two or more candidates declaring for the same party, the local party can’t tell them what they can declare. Oh, and ballots don’t have a letter in parenthesis, they state “Prefers X party”, see [here for an example](http://your.kingcounty.gov/elections/2014/nov-general/pdfs/sample-ballot.pdf). The state does not declare or confirm on the ballot that they are actually a member of any particular party. I think the presidential race in particular may have different rules, though I doubt it would matter in a practical sense; for that particular race I doubt the label next to the name would be the deciding factor. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/68 "2015-12-11T02:48:59Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > This won’t happen, but it’s a fun scenario to imagine. Imagine if Trump runs as an independent and does better than the Republican nominee, essentially making the Republican nominee the third party candidate. It’s fun imagining that scenario with Bush or Rubio in the role of the Republican nominee. It’s sort of already happened, with Teddy Roosevelt as the splinter candidate off of the Republicans who got more votes, Taft as the establishment Republican, and Wilson winning the race as the Democratic nominee in 1912. Though, Trump is no Teddy Roosevelt. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/69 "2015-12-11T04:41:15Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > In Canada, it’s much more direct than just party funding. > > A person who wants to run for a party has to win the nomination from the local constituency association. Once nominated, they then have to have their nomination approved by the leader of the party. If the leader of the party doesn’t sign off, the person is not the nominee of the party. > > It’s only after the nomination that funding comes into the picture. A candidate seeking the nomination foots the bill entirely on their own. I don’t think we disagree. Candidates down here seek nomination based on their own fund-raising, too. The difference is in the nomination and after. As I see it, the reason a parliamentary candidate submits to party discipline and the party platform according to the formalities you describe is because party funds his or her campaign; the only route to election is through the party. In the US, the party has far less leverage to force a candidate toward a particular set of positions, because primaries take the party leaders out of the nomination process, and if need be the candidate can go around the party to get funded. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/70 "2015-12-11T12:39:12Z")
No, it’s a mixture. Each candidate can raise their own funds as well. But fundamentally, it’s not all about the money; it is a different way of approaching politics. In a parliamentary system, you need to have parties with strong discipline to be effective in parliament, so the parties are structured that way. As well, our parties are much more independent from the government electoral process, and that allows them to have much more internal control. I guess I would put it this way, in regard to the dual process for local nomination and signoff by the leader: over the years, I’ve heard lots of comments about how people get the local nominations, how they work in the local party process, how they try to get their supporters lined up, what the different candidates for the nomination are setting out as their positions, and occasionally dissatisfaction when the leader won’t sign-off on a candidate (doesn’t happen very often, but it’s news when it does). Not once have I heard candidates or their supporters say “we need the money, so we accept the party discipline”. Sure, money is essential for a party to operate; but i’ve never heard candidates or their supporters say that the reason they seek the party’s nomination is to access party funds. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/71 "2015-12-11T13:56:38Z")
Suppose the convention opens up and Priebus takes the podium and says “Okay, we’ll take a voice vote on some rules here… First order is that we’ll have pizza for lunch and that by the way the name of Donald Trump cannot be entered into nomination all in favor say aye opposed say nay in the opinion of the chair the ayes have it motion carried”? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/72 "2015-12-11T14:10:05Z")
Cute, but losing an election is better than destroying the party. If the voters want Trump, Trump they shall have. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/73 "2015-12-11T14:27:32Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Suppose the convention opens up and Priebus takes the podium and says “Okay, we’ll take a voice vote on some rules here… First order is that we’ll have pizza for lunch and that by the way the name of Donald Trump cannot be entered into nomination all in favor say aye opposed say nay in the opinion of the chair the ayes have it motion carried”? And if Trump has a majority of the delegates why do you expect that motion would pass? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/74 "2015-12-11T14:36:44Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And if Trump has a majority of the delegates why do you expect that motion would pass? Voice votes can go at the whim of the chair and if the Trumpians get blindsided they might just say aye to the pizza without paying attention to the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/75 "2015-12-11T14:37:45Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Sure, money is essential for a party to operate; but i’ve never heard candidates or their supporters say that the reason they seek the party’s nomination is to access party funds. There’s nothing to talk about if that’s the only way to proceed. But if you were to put a low limit on your parties’ contributions, I suspect that their authority would erode. Think of it from the perspective of a US candidate. Your campaign is going to cost $1 million. Your party is permitted to provide you $5000. What’s your incentive to take orders from them? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/76 "2015-12-11T17:08:04Z")
Other than money, what else does the national party contribute to a specific candidate? Do they help candidates organize events, or stage events and then invite candidates? Do they say “We’ll staff 100 offices in Iowa and you can use them as you see fit?” I’m sure there’s networking opportunities but there’s gotta be something else material other than money that the national party contributes, right? ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/77 "2015-12-11T20:56:38Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > [Superdelegates](http://www.infoplease.com/us/government/superdelegates.html) > “Out of 2,470 total delegates at the Republican National Convention in 2016, 437 are unpledged delegates, who play the same role as superdelegates. Of the 437, 168 are members of the Republican National Committee.” There’s one error right there - actually, two. First, I assume the 168 refers to the three “free” delegates each state and territory gets. Only two of the three are Republican National Committee members; the third comes from the state’s own Republican Party organization. Second, if the information on [The Green Papers](http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/R) is accurate, a number of states require that these delegates vote for someone specific - either whoever wins the statewide vote (especially in states where all of the delegates, including the 3 per Congressional district each state gets, go to the statewide vote winner), or the delegates must specify in advance who they will vote for on the first ballot. Actually, the site lists that 366 delegates will go to the convention unpledged. That is between our two numbers; I’ll have to dig deeper to see where the number comes from. Of course, any rule can be changed by majority vote of the delegates on the floor of the convention (on the Democratic side, Hillary’s campaign threatened this in 2008 over Michigan’s delegates) - and this is what worries both Donald Trump and Ben Carson. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/78 "2015-12-11T21:00:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Wide open is better, despite it being noisier and crazier. The candidates now better reflect the electorate. “Now, there’s one thing you might have noticed I don’t complain about: politicians. Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don’t fall out of the sky. They don’t pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It’s what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you’re going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain’t going to do any good; you’re just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it’s not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here… like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks. There’s a nice campaign slogan for somebody: ‘The Public Sucks. F\*ck Hope.’” – George Carlin ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/79 "2015-12-11T21:02:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Voice votes can go at the whim of the chair and if the Trumpians get blindsided they might just say aye to the pizza without paying attention to the rest. “Historians still debate the root causes of the so-called ‘Anchovy Riot’ that broke out at the 2016 Republican National Convention . . .” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896/80 "2015-12-11T21:15:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Wide open is better, despite it being noisier and crazier. The candidates now better reflect the electorate. Not really. There was a study that demonstrated that popular opinion correlates to legislative priorities almost not at all. It’s hard to see how that could be a better reflection than anything; even perverse contrariness to popular opinion would be a reflection of a kind. Politicians reflect donors, mostly; and those guys aren’t “the electorate,” because this is not a formal plutocracy, whatever the tv networks want you to believe. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Voice votes can go at the whim of the chair and if the Trumpians get blindsided they might just say aye to the pizza without paying attention to the rest. If they’re Trumpians, they’ll probably want to eat the pizza with forks; and then why not have a real, sit-down, _classy_ meal? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-the-rnc-trump-the-trump/739896.md?page=5)