# Can't wear uniform at political events - so what about soldiers standing behind Bush? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545 "2007-06-03T02:59:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/21 "2007-06-03T21:00:39Z")
[QUOTE=ExTank] Too true. And since the former Marine in question in the OP alleges he had no branch, rank, or unit identifiers on his remnant uniforms, I don’t see where they are going with this investigation. He did his time, served honorably, and, as a civilian, expressed his right to free speech. As far as I’m concerned, he’s in the clear WRT to the demonstration/protest. If he did indeed disrespect the Major in an e-mail, well, there’s a record of that. And if the record bears out the charge of disrespect, that’s actionable. I think reducing his Honorable Discharge is way over the top, though. [/QUOTE] Is the guy a civilian? If he is, why can’t tell the major to go f\*ck off? The article mentions him being part of the “Ready Reserves”. What’s that? According to [DoD 1334.1](http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/html/133401.htm), it looks like it doesn’t matter whether it’s all or part of his uniform if he is now a civilian: > [@](#): > > 3.2. Former members of the Armed Forces, unless under another provision of this Instruction or under the terms of Section 772 of title 10, United States Code (reference (d)), who served honorably during a declared or undeclared war and whose most recent service was terminated under honorable conditions may wear the uniform in the highest grade held during such war service only on the following occasions and in the course of travel incident thereto: > > ``` > 3.2.1. Military funerals, memorial services, weddings, and inaugurals. > > 3.2.2. Parades on National or State holidays; or other parades or ceremonies of a patriotic character in which any Active or Reserve United States military unit is taking part. > > 3.2.3. Wearing of the uniform or any part thereof at any other time or for any other purposes is prohibited. > > ``` Also not that, according [this directive](http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/5A2F1AB0FD3D11568525717200540E51?opendocument), the ban on political events goes beyond just whether the person is in uniform or not: > [@](#): > > Though no rule banning members from attending any of these events exists, people should be aware that making an announcement that they are a military member, could also bring punishment. > > “Let’s say you go to an anti-abortion rally in civilian clothes,” said Booker. “It’s fine for you to be there, but you cannot stand up there and say ‘Hi, I am a corporal in the United States Marine Corps and this is where I stand.’” I’d also like the OP to clarify specifically which event or event is in question wrt the president. Is it your contention that the president not be allowed to address the troops on camera? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/22 "2007-06-03T21:01:31Z")
[QUOTE=ExTank] If he did indeed disrespect the Major in an e-mail, well, there’s a record of that. And if the record bears out the charge of disrespect, that’s actionable. I think reducing his Honorable Discharge is way over the top, though. [/QUOTE] If telling your former CO what he can do to himself is all it takes to get out of the risk of being back-door drafted and shipped back out again, look for it to happen a helluva lot more often now, wouldn’tja say? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/23 "2007-06-03T21:09:53Z")
No, I wouldn’t. The intensity of the emotional committment of comrades in combat to each other is incredible. Even men who know full well that they are being set to a fool’s mission will volunteer out of loyalty to their fellows. And, no, it doesn’t make any sense, but what about war ever did? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/24 "2007-06-03T21:19:01Z")
Once they’re back home, and in civilian life again, and the buddies whose lives they’ve depended upon are too, that esprit de corps is more of a fond memory. The daily fear and hopelessness of the situation, and the sights of some of their buddies getting blown up, are pretty strong memories too - and motivators for all of them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/25 "2007-06-03T21:20:28Z")
Maybe they actually did learn something from Viet Nam. They learned that uniformed wearing veterans of the combat in question lend a lot of credibility to the protest. The Viet Nam Veterans Against the War were enormously effective as a group. Of course, the protesting veteran could carry some other sort of marker, a sign, maybe, something like that, but nothing is as visually effective as the actual uniform, it makes a powerful statement. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/26 "2007-06-03T21:23:26Z")
And apparently they removed all insignia first. Anyone could have bought the same clothing at a surplus store. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/27 "2007-06-03T21:30:46Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] If telling your former CO what he can do to himself is all it takes to get out of the risk of being back-door drafted and shipped back out again, look for it to happen a helluva lot more often now, wouldn’tja say? [/QUOTE] MAJ Whyte isn’t a “former CO.” According to the article linked in the OP, he is a Personnel Officer of some sort working in the Marine’s IRR Center in Kansas City. [QUOTE=John Mace] Is the guy a civilian? If he is, why can’t tell the major to go f\*ck off? The article mentions him being part of the “Ready Reserves”. What’s that? According to [DoD 1334.1](http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/html/133401.htm), it looks like it doesn’t matter whether it’s all or part of his uniform if he is now a civilian: [/QUOTE] On reflection, actually, I think you’re right. When I left the Army in '91, I was told about my IRR obligation. I was told that I was to consider myself to be in the U.S. Army Reserve, unassigned to any unit, not obligated to be present at any unit drill or function, but to keep my uniforms until my IRR obligation expired. I would assume that any official military correspondence received while on IRR status would be handled with the due decorum as befits the rank/authority of the sender. What was emphasized was that I was essentially 99% out of the military. 99% is not 100%, so CPL Kokesh may very well be in some trouble if he did indeed communicate inappropriately with MAJ Whyte. And if he did strip down a uniform he was supposed to keep up, or even if he bought a brand new one from the U.S. Cavalry Store, and wear it to a political event, he would be in violation of regs. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/28 "2007-06-03T21:45:51Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] It would be a start. Does any public figure besides Bush and Cheney make speeches to the troops? [/QUOTE] Pretty much every US President for the past several decades. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/29 "2007-06-03T21:51:04Z")
[QUOTE=ExTank] :dubious: :rolleyes: What the _fuck_ would you have all these servicemembers do? Change into Easter Bunny outfits? Or have government officials (including Congress) stop speaking publicly to our military personnel? [/QUOTE] It’s one thing to speak to service members, it’s another thing entirely to put up a “Mission Accomplished” banner or have a soldier stand right behind you while you make a speech at the White House to [bash Democrats](http://bp3.blogger.com/_1xQeOPE9ePU/RmGQFbED8YI/AAAAAAAAAXE/uVc--6-6hlU/s1600-h/bushpolprop.jpg) efforts to set a timetable. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/30 "2007-06-03T22:00:03Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] It’s one thing to speak to service members, it’s another thing entirely to put up a “Mission Accomplished” banner or have a soldier stand right behind you while you make a speech at the White House to [bash Democrats](http://bp3.blogger.com/_1xQeOPE9ePU/RmGQFbED8YI/AAAAAAAAAXE/uVc--6-6hlU/s1600-h/bushpolprop.jpg) efforts to set a timetable. [/QUOTE] I agree the whole “Mission Accomplished” thing was kinda cheesy, but that was a Presidential visit to an Aircraft Carrier, something well within his rights as C-in-C of the U.S. Armed Forces. Some “HOO-RAH” bullshit was as inevitable this time around as it was the last time around. There’s nothing in your photos to indicate whether they were there in an official capacity or not. Do you have some more information to elaborate on your point? Bear in mind, I didn’t hear/see this speech directly. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/31 "2007-06-03T22:05:45Z")
[QUOTE=ExTank] There’s nothing in your photos to indicate whether they were there in an official capacity or not. Do you have some more information to elaborate on your point? Bear in mind, I didn’t hear/see this speech directly. [/QUOTE] I do not know the official explanation for the soldier’s presence. All I know is that a uniformed soldier was standing behind the President while he was making a speech in front of the cameras, at the White House, bashing the Democratic Congress. On the face of it, it looks like Bush was using soldiers as a political prop. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/32 "2007-06-03T22:09:27Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] I do not know the official explanation for the soldier’s presence. All I know is that a uniformed soldier was standing behind the President while he was making a speech in front of the cameras, at the White House, bashing the Democratic Congress. On the face of it, it looks like Bush was using soldiers as a political prop. [/QUOTE] More context would be in order for me to comment beyond uninformed speculation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/33 "2007-06-03T22:29:42Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] I do not know the official explanation for the soldier’s presence. All I know is that a uniformed soldier was standing behind the President while he was making a speech in front of the cameras, at the White House, bashing the Democratic Congress. On the face of it, it looks like Bush was using soldiers as a political prop. [/QUOTE] Are you suggesting that the military personnel in those pictures be prosecuted? Even if Bush were delivering a completely political speech (which you have not in any way proven that he was), remember it’s not illegal to hold a political event in which military types are present, it’s against military regs for the military types to be there. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/34 "2007-06-03T22:31:54Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] I do not know the official explanation for the soldier’s presence. All I know is that a uniformed soldier was standing behind the President while he was making a speech in front of the cameras, at the White House, bashing the Democratic Congress. On the face of it, it looks like Bush was using soldiers as a political prop. [/QUOTE] Sometimes the CINC will combine a speech on the lawn of the White House with a military awards ceremony. They would be technically two seperate functions (scheduled back to back). Or, the uniformed person behind him could be some kind of aide, or advisor that he thought he might need to answer a question on the status of some activity in Iraq. As the speech was directly about Iraq, the Prez might need the military guy to step up and say stuff like “The surge is going well. We reduced violence by ‘x’ amount. The next six months will be crucial”. A uniform in attendance of a speech about the war is not surprising. One present during a speech on Global Warming would be… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/35 "2007-06-03T22:36:59Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Are you suggesting that the military personnel in those pictures be prosecuted? [/QUOTE] If they they are violating the law, are you suggesting they should not be prosecuted? > [@](#): > > Even if Bush were delivering a completely political speech (which you have not in any way proven that he was), remember it’s not illegal to hold a political event in which military types are present… So Bush is not subject to prosecution. > [@](#): > > …it’s against military regs for the military types to be there. So they should be prosecuted, if that standard is being applied to members of the military attending political events sponsored by groups opposing the war and the administration. Am I parsing you correctly? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/36 "2007-06-03T22:38:37Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Are you suggesting that the military personnel in those pictures be prosecuted? Even if Bush were delivering a completely political speech (which you have not in any way proven that he was), remember it’s not illegal to hold a political event in which military types are present, it’s against military regs for the military types to be there. [/QUOTE] Regardless of whether the _soldiers_ knew about it in advance, Bush knew about the speech in advance and it was inappropriate for Bush to use the soldiers as a backdrop for his speech. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/37 "2007-06-03T22:40:15Z")
It could, perhaps, be something other than a presidential credibility enhancement mission. Could be. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/38 "2007-06-03T22:42:43Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] If they they are violating the law, are you suggesting they should not be prosecuted? So Bush is not subject to prosecution. So they should be prosecuted, if that standard is being applied to members of the military attending political events sponsored by groups opposing the war and the administration. Am I parsing you correctly? [/QUOTE] It’s not a “law”, it’s a military regulation. I see no evidence that said regulation was being violated, so no, I don’t think they should be prosecuted. However, let’s suppose that Bush orders a military person to stand behind him while he makes a political speech. Let’s even suppose that he tells that person the speech is entirely political. Now, the person has to decide whether to follow that particular regulation or to disregard a direct order from the Commander in Chief. In that case, I would not prosecute the person. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/39 "2007-06-03T22:46:17Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] Regardless of whether the _soldiers_ knew about it in advance, Bush knew about the speech in advance and it was inappropriate for Bush to use the soldiers as a backdrop for his speech. [/QUOTE] Eh. First, we don’t have any evidence that he was giving a political speech. Second, the president is surrounded by military guards while he’s at the WH. This kind of stuff is going to happen, even when Ms. Clinton moves back into that residence. Sorry, but I can’t manufacture any outrage over this particular thing. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545/40 "2007-06-03T22:49:37Z")
[President Bush Discusses Iraq War Emergency Supplemental](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/03/20070323-1.html) March 23, 2007 > [@](#): > > Today I’m joined here at the White House by veterans, family members of people serving in combat, family members of those who have sacrificed. I am honored that they have joined me here today. > … > The purpose of the emergency war spending bill I requested was to provide our troops with vital funding. Instead, Democrats in the House, in an act of political theater, voted to substitute their judgment for that of our military commanders on the ground in Iraq. They set rigid restrictions that will require an army of lawyers to interpret. They set an arbitrary date for withdrawal without regard for conditions on the ground. And they tacked on billions for pet projects that have nothing to do with winning the war on terror. This bill has too much pork, too many conditions and an artificial timetable for withdrawal. > … > Amid the real challenges in Iraq, we’re beginning to see some signs of progress. Yet, to score political points, the Democratic majority in the House has shown it is willing to undermine the gains our troops are making on the ground. > … > Democrats want to make clear that they oppose the war in Iraq. They have made their point. For some, that is not enough. These Democrats believe that the longer they can delay funding for our troops, the more likely they are to force me to accept restrictions on our commanders, an artificial timetable for withdrawal, and their pet spending projects. The servicemembers were clearly used solely as props for the President’s political activities. They were wearing their uniforms, so they should be charged under section 3.1.2 of [directive 1334.01](http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:OyO2itMuVswJ:www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/133401p.pdf+%22During+or+in+connection+with+furthering+political+activities%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a) > [@](#): > > 3.1.2. During or in connection with furthering political activities, private employment or commercial interests, when an inference of official sponsorship for the activity or interest may be drawn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cant-wear-uniform-at-political-events-so-what-about-soldiers-standing-behind-bush/406545.md?page=3)