# CAP Antismetic Bullshit Controversy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 19, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065 "2012-01-19T20:58:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/41 "2012-01-21T17:49:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Your reading comprehension skills are atrocious. > > You said that statements could only be deemed anti-Semitic it they applied to ALL Jews and showed hatred for ALL Jews. And the slanders in the Protocols don’t apply to all Jews? Seriously, if this is the extent of your quibble with my statement, than change it to “Jews as a group” instead of “All Jews”. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Claiming that the Protocols of Zion are accurate or that there’ve been cases of Jewish doctors injecting black babies with AIDS or that Hollywood is controlled by evil Jews or the Bush administration was controlled by evil Jews who cared more about Israel than America does not demonstrate hatred for ALL Jews. > > By your standard, accusing individual Jews, groups of Jews, or Jewish organizations of neferarious activities to hurt Gentiles or sacrifice or manipulate Gentiles for the sake of the Jewish tribe/race/nation isn’t Anti-Semitic unless the accusser says that ALL Jews behave like this and there are no “good ones”. > > That said, you do deserve to be congratulated for standing up for people like David Irving and arguing they’re not “Anti-Semites”. > > However, have the courage of your convictions and stand up for those who promote the Protocols of Zion as well. Seriously, this is just fucking retarded. If I say, those conniving Jews are plotting to take over the world, that applies to all Jews. Even if I qualify it with, but not the good Jews! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/42 "2012-01-21T17:58:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If I say, those conniving Jews are plotting to take over the world, that applies to all Jews. Even if I qualify it with, but not the good Jews! “Those damn Israel-Firster Jews and their Zionist allies are conniving to subvert the United States in the service of the Jewish State! Mind you, not the good ones, they have the inherent moral decency to agree with my politics.” Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/43 "2012-01-21T18:20:51Z")
You know, there are Cuban-Americans who are very hawkish in their stance towards Cuba, and are against attempts to soften our stance towards the current government, even if improving relations would benefit America. You might say they are…Cuba-Firsters. If they’re people who fled Cuba and lost businesses and investments over there (or if they’re descendants of those people), and they stand staunchly opposed to lifting sanctions against the Castro regime and have sway with the American government, then it’s fair to question whether their agenda is in the best interests of America and to criticize them. If in response they tarred such criticism as evidence of “godless communism,” I’m pretty sure we’d think they were being dicks. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/44 "2012-01-21T18:50:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “Those damn Israel-Firster Jews and their Zionist allies are conniving to subvert the United States in the service of the Jewish State! Mind you, not the good ones, they have the inherent moral decency to agree with my politics.” > Hmmm… If someone said something like that, that would be anti-semetic. Luckily, as far as I can tell noone associated with CAP said anything remotely like that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/45 "2012-01-21T19:08:12Z")
I’m not at all convinced that “Israel First” is an accusation of treason, as others have suggested. Maybe this has to do with my severe lack of rah-rah patriotism, but it doesn’t much bother me if someone places some particular group above their nation-state, not even if they’re a politician. Someone might be Jesus-first, they might be earth-first, they might be Israel-first, they might be banks-first, they might be gay-rights-first; in all cases, it’s an accusation of their attendance to a particular special interest. It’s not a particularly vicious accusation. Perhaps folks who find Israel-first to be antisemitic (whether they’re the speaker or the audience) place a much higher value on loyalty to one’s country than I do. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/46 "2012-01-21T22:42:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not at all convinced that “Israel First” is an accusation of treason, as others have suggested. Maybe this has to do with my severe lack of rah-rah patriotism, but it doesn’t much bother me if someone places some particular group above their nation-state, not even if they’re a politician. It may be that you don’t grok the connection due to that bit, but it’s not just about patriotism. A traitor is, literally, someone “who betrays another’s trust or is false to an obligation or duty.” Politicians have an obligation and duty placed in them not to subvert our country in the service of foreign masters. Even pundits have trust placed in them not to deceive their readers in order to sell out their homeland to a foreign power. Hell, average citizens would have the same basic assumption made of them. And you’re not grokking the spectrum of accusations. Saying someone is, for instance, “gay-rights first” doesn’t place them in opposition to the benefit of their home, as human rights are a fundamental principle of America anyways. Someone who is “banks first” would at the very least be putting the interest of banks above what might be best for a certain class of people or the nation as a whole. Someone who was “Europe first” would be putting the needs and benefits of Europe above their own home. Surely you understand that principle at least? It’s not patriotism that’s at issue, it’s the welfare of one’s own home. If you rip out all the insulation in your house and give it to Mrs. Smith because you’re a “Mrs. Smith-firster”, your wife would have legitimate cause to complain that you’d fucked over all the residents of your house even if she wasn’t particularly dedicated to those-four-walls-in-specific, right? > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I’m pretty sure we’d think they were being dicks. Just like (decent) people would consider a person to be an asshole if he accused someone of Cuban heritage of being “a Cuban-firster” simply because that person of Cuban heritage differed with their political worldview on how to interact with Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/47 "2012-01-21T23:37:49Z")
That’s essentially why I’ve stopped voting in U.S. elections. I’m technically a U.S. citizen, but I define myself as Israeli, and as such I cannot in good faith take part in the American political process. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/48 "2012-01-22T01:05:09Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If someone said something like that, that would be anti-semetic. Luckily, as far as I can tell noone associated with CAP said anything remotely like that. So then you think Juan Cole, John Mearscheimer and Stephen Walt engage in anti-Semitism but that David Irving doesn’t? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/49 "2012-01-22T02:23:19Z")
My guess would be, if treis offers a semi-cogent response at all that is, that when he says “something like that” he doesn’t mean “something” that is “like that” but something that uses those exact words. Something with the same semantic value won’t count. So, for instance, when W&M claim that the US is acting in a geopolitical context that is not in America’s interest but is aiming at supporting Israel “unconditionally”, they’re not saying the words “conniving to subvert the United States in the service of the Jewish State” even though that’s the semantic content of their claims. When they claim that there isn’t a moral case for supporting Israel they’re not saying those who oppose US policy are “good ones” and that they have the “moral decency” to agree with W&M’s politics, because even though it has that semantic value they don’t use those exact words. We’ll see if treis can come up with more than that. Truthfully with his record here I’d expected him to strongly deny that was anti-Semitic at all. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/50 "2012-01-22T02:23:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then you think Juan Cole, John Mearscheimer and Stephen Walt engage in anti-Semitism but that David Irving doesn’t? :dubious: I don’t know who any of these people are. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/51 "2012-01-22T02:40:30Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > if treis offers a semi-cogent response at all Damn I’m good. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/52 "2012-01-22T03:55:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Someone who was “Europe first” would be putting the needs and benefits of Europe above their own home. Surely you understand that principle at least? It’s not patriotism that’s at issue, it’s the welfare of one’s own home. If you rip out all the insulation in your house and give it to Mrs. Smith because you’re a “Mrs. Smith-firster”, your wife would have legitimate cause to complain that you’d fucked over all the residents of your house even if she wasn’t particularly dedicated to those-four-walls-in-specific, right? Maybe. At the same time, I think there are three things going on here that feed into the accusation: 1. Someone may be “Israel First” if they are prioritizing the US-Israel relationship above other concerns, and that’s not really treasonous in any sense. Other people prioritize abortion rights first, or anti-abortion first, or the economy first. In other words, Israel comes before other issues, not before this nation. 2. People may be, as I was, ignorant of the history of the term. In doing a little Googling, I’m persuaded that the term has an ugly history. It reminds me of cartoons I saw of W. as a chimpanzee, and how those cartoons weren’t racist, even though a very similar cartoon of Obama as a monkey would have nasty racist overtones, due to history of the caricature. 3. History of the term aside, the primary critics of the language come across as more interested in slamming the term’s users than in educating anyone about why the terms would be objectionable. Just as folks critical of Israel’s policies need to be careful not to borrow language from genuine antisemites, folks defending Israel’s policies need to be careful not to sling accusations of antisemitism around without a solid reason. In this case, it looks to me as though, at worst, a term with an antisemitic history was used sloppily. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/53 "2012-01-22T03:55:28Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > We’ll see if treis can come up with more than that. Truthfully with his record here I’d expected him to strongly deny that was anti-Semitic at all. And what record is that? Truthfully, I don’t expect anything but a smart ass response from the biggest dick this board has. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/54 "2012-01-22T04:02:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. History of the term aside, the primary critics of the language come across as more interested in slamming the term’s users than in educating anyone about why the terms would be objectionable. [Post #6](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14688083&postcount=6). > [@LHOD](#): > > In this case, it looks to me as though, at worst, a term with an antisemitic history was used sloppily. There’s been a lot of “sloppiness” in debates about Israel and the Middle East. It behooves us to be less “sloppy” if we want to make real progress towards peace. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/55 "2012-01-22T04:16:21Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > [Post #6](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14688083&postcount=6).There’s been a lot of “sloppiness” in debates about Israel and the Middle East. It behooves us to be less “sloppy” if we want to make real progress towards peace. Did you miss my point 2 above? I’m conceding the term’s unsavory past. But I’m not conceding that you ought to be putting “sloppiness” in quotes. There have also been sloppy accusations of antisemitism–should I put that in quotes as well? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/56 "2012-01-22T04:29:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In other words, Israel comes before other issues, not before this nation. But then they’re not Israel-firsters, they’re people who disagree with others as to the proper ranking of various international alliances. And that’s fine, but the use of the term “Israel-firster” is not, I hope you’d agree, a term that’s designed with the connotation of someone with perfectly defensible positions who simply happens to have a different schema of valuing international relations than the person making the claim. It’s not, after all, “Israel-first-among-international-alliances-in-the-middle-east-ers” or what have you. The use and construction of the phrase deliberately sets it up as someone who places Israel first, full stop. While your point 2 is a somewhat welcome point, your point 3 is somewhat underwhelming. I’d argue that most of us who’ve had it to the gills with the term aren’t necessarily interested in “slamming” its users, but in doing away with its use. While that may sometimes entail education, truth be told it’s fairly exhausting to go through a thorough recitation of the facts over and over and over again each time it comes up. Imagine, if you will, instead of pointing out that Obama=chimp cartoons are racist, or even that they have a racist legacy behind them, every time it came up you’d have to provide a thorough debunking complete with pictorial evidence of its use over the decades. Then imagine that “Obama=chimp” was one of the, if not the single most common way that critics of Obama’s policies went about attacking him. That should give you some idea of the dynamic behind the use of “Israel-firster” rhetoric and its use by those who oppose certain politics wrt Israel. And while it may or may not be a term that was used sloppily in the CAP situation (and let’s be frank, the OP is hardly doing any heavy lifting to craft a coherent, cogent, compelling argument on any counts), in general it is a term that should be avoided. At the very least it’s a term that should be avoided because it’s rhetorically sloppy and absurd and casts implications that are almost always wildly unwarranted when the actual issue is different prioritization, valuation, and classification. And at worst it’s a dog-whistle designed to invoke the image of perfidious International Jewry and the gentile pawns of the Zionists. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/57 "2012-01-22T04:35:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But I’m not conceding that you ought to be putting “sloppiness” in quotes. You choose to read use of loaded terminology that has a historic anti-Semitic context as sloppiness. Not everyone is ready to dance down that yellow brick road with you. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/58 "2012-01-22T04:59:18Z")
So let it be said that: Disagreeing with Israel is not anti-Semitic. Most people who criticize Israel are not anti-Semites. but The absolute insistence from the anti-Israel movement that there is never, ever, such a thing as a legitimate accusation of anti-Semitism as long as the person being accused made sure to mention “Israel” or “Zionism” in his remarks, has made the movement a fantastic haven for anti-Semites, who, while a minority, are in fact present within. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/59 "2012-01-22T05:11:24Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The absolute insistence from the anti-Israel movement that there is never, ever, such a thing as a legitimate accusation of anti-Semitism as long as the person being accused made sure to mention “Israel” or “Zionism” in his remarks, has made the movement a fantastic haven for anti-Semites, who, while a minority, are in fact present within. [ > [@](#): > > “Them Jews ain’t going to let him talk to me,” Wright said. "I told my baby daughter that he’ll talk to me in five years when he’s a lame duck, or in eight years when he’s out of office.” > > Wright said he would tell the president, if he could, to stay true to himself. > > “He’s gotta do what politicians do,” Wright said. “Ethnic cleansing is going on in Gaza, “Ethnic cleansing the Zionist is a sin and a crime against humanity, and they don’t want Barack talking like that because that’s anti-Israel.” > > Rev. Wright also said that “the Jewish vote, the A-I-P-A-C vote, that’s controlling him, that would not let him send representation to the Darfur Review Conference, that’s talking this craziness on this trip, cause they’re Zionists, they would not let him talk to someone who calls a spade what it is. “ > […] > I Meant to Say “Zionists” Are Keeping Me from Talking to President Obama — Not Jews ]([http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/06/rev-wright-i-meant-to-say-zionists-are-keeping-me-from-talking-to-president-obama-not-jews/](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/06/rev-wright-i-meant-to-say-zionists-are-keeping-me-from-talking-to-president-obama-not-jews/)) … ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065/60 "2012-01-22T05:26:53Z")
I’d kinda like to know just _why_ people get so _worked up_ about Israel - especially people with zero connection to Israel or any issues that the Middle East is involved in. Why does it inspire such passionate and heated rhetoric? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cap-antismetic-bullshit-controversy/610065.md?page=4)