# Capitalism, or perhaps Capitalization **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 1, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711 "2011-12-01T15:56:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/1 "2011-12-01T15:56:41Z")
Can anyone think of an example where the word “navy” is capitalized when it is not the first word of a sentence or part of a proper noun? I am arguing a point elsewhere on the internet and the other party (a lovely fellow I am sure) maintains “The US Department of Defense told the Navy to go to heck.” is permitted as ‘it is obvious’ we are talking about the US Navy. What says the hive mind? (I can’t go to bed! Someone on the Internet is wrong!) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/2 "2011-12-01T16:22:54Z")
1. In the sentence you offer, “Navy” is a proper noun. 2. “Internet” is not a proper noun, and you should not be capitalizing it in the middle of a sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/3 "2011-12-01T16:30:24Z")
Ditto what **Munch** said. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Can anyone think of an example where the word “navy” is capitalized when it is not the first word of a sentence or part of a proper noun? Why would it be capitalized if it is not the first word of a sentence and is also not part of a proper noun? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/4 "2011-12-01T16:31:58Z")
For some reason my writing books (I am an English teacher) capitalizes ‘Internet,’ I have picked up the dirty habit. How is ‘navy’ a proper noun all by its lonesome? The world has many navies. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/5 "2011-12-01T16:39:06Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > 1. “Internet” is not a proper noun Standard usage disagrees with you here. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/6 "2011-12-01T16:42:13Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > For some reason my writing books (I am an English teacher) capitalizes ‘Internet,’ I have picked up the dirty habit. > > How is ‘navy’ a proper noun all by its lonesome? The world has many navies. Because it’s referring to a specific navy, the US Navy, and not just any navy. At least, that’s what capitalizing the “n” in “navy” conveys to me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/7 "2011-12-01T16:44:49Z")
For example, [Merriam-Webster](http://mw4.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/navy) offers: > [@](#): > > 1. often capitalized : the complete naval establishment of a nation including yards, stations, ships, and personnel Or from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): > [@](#): > > 1. > > ( often initial capital letter ) the complete body of such warships together with their officers and enlisted personnel, equipment, yards, etc., constituting the sea power of a nation. > 3. > ( often initial capital letter ) the department of government charged with its management. Or [here’s some capitalization rules](http://www.libraryonline.com/default.asp?pID=48): > [@](#): > > Army, Navy and Air Force – Capitalize when referring to these organizations by name or with other widely accepted references to them. > Examples: > · the Army · U.S. Army · French Army · Organized Reserves · 1st Regiment > · the Navy · U.S. Navy · British Navy · Marine Corps · the Marines > · the Air Force · U.S. Air Force · Royal Air Force · Edwards Air Force Base This is more an issue of style, though, so consult your style guide. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/8 "2011-12-01T16:47:01Z")
Standard usage some places would disagree. AP, Chicago, and NYT style guides all (I believe) still use the capital I, but I think most commonwealth country style guides have abandoned it at this point. I recall that CNN officially changed their house standard to the lower case last year. For informal writing I tend to use the lower case just because I’m not writing to a standard and the capital I is more a convention than a logical rule. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/9 "2011-12-01T17:00:33Z")
1. This is a style choice; there is no official arbiter of right or wrong. 2. It’s certainly consistent and defensible to leave the general term ‘navy’ uncapitalized, while capitalizing references to a particular organization. “According to the U.S. Defense Department, the Navy has no more cannibalism than any other navy in the world.” ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/10 "2011-12-01T17:20:26Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > How is ‘navy’ a proper noun all by its lonesome? The world has many navies. Because by capitalizing it, you’re saying you’re referring to one specific navy - \*the \*[US] Navy. If you left it uncapitalized, it would still be correct, but referring to some unknown, unspecified navy. [QUOTE=friedo] Standard usage disagrees with you here. [/QUOTE] I’ll take your word for it - but I very rarely see “internet” capitalized. I don’t see any particular reason for it to be, and suspect most style guides will send it back to the lowercased world in short order. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/11 "2011-12-01T18:19:21Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > How is ‘navy’ a proper noun all by its lonesome? The world has many navies. It’s clear from the context that it’s the United States Navy being referred to. Consider this. Would you feel this is a properly capitalized sentence? _“The White House told the Department of Defense to quit picking on the Navy.”_ There are lots of white houses and departments of defense and navies in the world but the context makes it obvious which ones we are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/12 "2011-12-01T20:11:55Z")
Maybe it’s the use of the word “the” that identifies the proper noun? > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > … “The US Department of Defense told the Navy to go to heck.” … They told the navy to go to heck. This identifies it as a specific navy. Even though I might not figure out whether they were talking about their own navy or someone else’s navy, it is still a specific one, and is therefore capitalized. However, if the line had omitted the definite article (“The US Department of Defense told a navy to go to heck.”) then it would not be capitalized. Just throwing out an idea for discussion… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/13 "2011-12-01T21:00:51Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Maybe it’s the use of the word “the” that identifies the proper noun? > > Just throwing out an idea for discussion… I don’t think that’s the case. “The navy” can be used as a term for the concept without referring to a specific navy. For example, if I wrote _“young men have been joining the navy for centuries in order to see the world”_ I’m not naming any specific national navy. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/14 "2011-12-01T21:57:42Z")
FWIW, I just consulted my Associated Press Stylebook, and here’s what it has to say: > [@](#): > > **navy** Capitalize when referring to U.S. forces: _the U.S. Navy_, _the Navy_, _Navy policy_. Do not use the abbreviation _USN_. > > Lowercase when referring to the naval forces of other nations: _the British navy_. > > This approach has been adopted for consistency, because many foreign nations do not use _navy_ as the proper name. However, as I said before, this is a style issue. I don’t have the _Chicago Manual of Style_, but I believe it does _not_ capitalize “navy” when used alone, even if used in reference to US forces. If somebody with a copy could check, it should be paragraph 8.111. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/15 "2011-12-02T02:21:54Z")
Thank you all, especially **pulykamell** who gave us such good links. At least some sources allow (but do not require) a capital letter. I am puzzled by the idea that one must look outside the sentence to find the referent to determine how to punctuate the sentence. Let me noodle over it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capitalism-or-perhaps-capitalization/604711/16 "2011-12-02T19:05:48Z")
Wow. I had no idea that Internet was being demoted. I’ve used it that way forever. From what I can tell, it comes from back when internet was still used for smaller networks of computers. Nowadays, either _intranet_ or just plain _network_ is most commonly used for these. Still, it just looks weird to me, so I’ll keep it up until the AP changes it.