# Capsaicin in chili seeds (and plant body): isn't that counterproductive as a survival "strategy?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 25, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794 "2018-05-25T14:15:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/1 "2018-05-25T14:15:17Z")
See query. The answer is no, obviously, but I’m perplexed. Breakdown in three parts: 1. If phenotypic results are, with flowering plants, attractive to animals who are vectors for the genetic spread (seeds), why would a harsh, (to me) seemingly defensive attribute obviously been successful? 2. Related to above, which kind of prompted it: is the capsaicin, in fact, _not_ particularly offensive to all animals, but only to particular ones who attack the fruit–if that is the correct word for the whole chili–before it matures enough to seed? I ask because 3. My dog, who is acting typically for others of his species (I believe) has on more than one occasion chowed down red-oil chockfull of red pepper and seeds, and if he hated the first time would’ve learned and stayed away. Is that the case with all sorts of animals, but not us, for example? Or do “target” animals actually _like_ the damn things because of the capsaicin? Sugar seems a better come-on, but what do I know. Maybe its too high an energy drag cost to produce sweet seeds. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/2 "2018-05-25T14:21:29Z")
Birds can’t taste capsaicin: [Capsaicin - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsaicin#Natural_function) > [@](#): > > The seeds of Capsicum plants are dispersed predominantly by birds: in birds, the TRPV1 channel does not respond to capsaicin or related chemicals (avian vs. mammalian TRPV1 show functional diversity and selective sensitivity). This is advantageous to the plant, as chili pepper seeds consumed by birds pass through the digestive tract and can germinate later, whereas mammals have molar teeth which destroy such seeds and prevent them from germinating. Thus, natural selection may have led to increasing capsaicin production because it makes the plant less likely to be eaten by animals that do not help it disperse. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/3 "2018-05-25T14:21:37Z")
As usual, your OP is not as clear as it could be. But still, see this SDSAB report from Colibri, “[Are birds immune to hot pepper, enabling them to eat vast amounts and spread the seeds?](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1857/are-birds-immune-to-hot-pepper-enabling-them-to-eat-vast-amounts-and-spread-the-seeds/)”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/4 "2018-05-25T14:25:52Z")
Dang, I didn’t even have a _chance_ to answer! You guys are too fast. (I used to be fast. Now I’m only half-fast.) . ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/5 "2018-05-25T14:32:44Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > As usual, your OP is not as clear as it could be. But still, see this SDSAB report from Colibri, “[Are birds immune to hot pepper, enabling them to eat vast amounts and spread the seeds?](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1857/are-birds-immune-to-hot-pepper-enabling-them-to-eat-vast-amounts-and-spread-the-seeds/)”. Do NOT comment on my posting ability. That is near thread shit. It was superfluous and and actually negated by your second sentence. Do communicate with **Exapno** if you must on the matter or go ahead and pit me. There, if you wish, post the **Colibri** ATMB comment about my posting style, in response to a few out of many thousands of posts which I have made. Then, wait for a mod to come to reprint why he hesitates and is annoyed to adjudicate–and here I do not complain in ATMB or otherwise to mods. No one else is rude enough, or querulous enough, to claim that _he_ is then who parses correctly, and may be off–normal enough in conversati9onal modes even in GQ with "discrete queries:-- and somehow must make clear to all that he is the smart guy. I defy anyone else too analyze why my queries here are not clearly understandable. I refuse to consider why _you_ have a problem with OP, because an opening gambit like yours is far more inappropriate to “clarity”–in whatever picayune definition you may have as the mood strikes you–than a civilized tone in an Internet forum where, as here, normal intellectual-with-looseness conversation is encouraged. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/6 "2018-05-25T14:51:29Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > As usual, your OP is not as clear as it could be. I thought it was crystal clear. You didn’t seem to have any trouble understanding it based on the link you provided. In fact a direct factual response was posted just moments before your critique. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/7 "2018-05-25T15:07:39Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I thought it was crystal clear. As did I. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/8 "2018-05-25T15:07:58Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > I defy anyone else too analyze why my queries here are not clearly understandable. I would be genuinely interested in a polite and completely friendly discussion with you on this point, probably not in this thread or forum, but not in the pit either - maybe MPSIMS - if you’re up for that. ETA: I did understand what you asked as the OP of this thread; I have struggled with a few of the others, and I do think you sometimes employ what seems to me an unusual style or syntax, which I am curious about. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/9 "2018-05-25T15:44:56Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Do NOT comment on my posting ability. That is near thread shit. It was superfluous and and actually negated by your second sentence. Do communicate with **Exapno** if you must on the matter or go ahead and pit me. There, if you wish, post the **Colibri** ATMB comment about my posting style, in response to a few out of many thousands of posts which I have made. Then, wait for a mod to come to reprint why he hesitates and is annoyed to adjudicate–and here I do not complain in ATMB or otherwise to mods. > > No one else is rude enough, or querulous enough, to claim that _he_ is then who parses correctly, and may be off–normal enough in conversati9onal modes even in GQ with "discrete queries:-- and somehow must make clear to all that he is the smart guy. > > I defy anyone else too analyze why my queries here are not clearly understandable. I refuse to consider why _you_ have a problem with OP, because an opening gambit like yours is far more inappropriate to “clarity”–in whatever picayune definition you may have as the mood strikes you–than a civilized tone in an Internet forum where, as here, normal intellectual-with-looseness conversation is encouraged. Your writing style is difficult to follow. Sometimes, it’s just a little off and people can figure out what you’re trying to say. But other times, it renders your posts incomprehensible. Nobody on this board is encouraging bad writing. It’s an obstacle to communication, which is what this board does encourage. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/10 "2018-05-25T16:02:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Your writing style is difficult to follow. Sometimes, it’s just a little off and people can figure out what you’re trying to say. But other times, it renders your posts incomprehensible. > > Nobody on this board is encouraging bad writing. It’s an obstacle to communication, which is what this board does encourage. I don’t pretend to know Leo’s situation. Sometimes a good thinkorgan can efficiently and effectively process information, but is far less efficient at translating into a verbal format. Such translation is a good skill to have, but everything has a limit. This is a message board, not a literary magazine. Slagging someone who prepares a post with good bones but dresses it clumsily despite a decent effort is lame, to put it kindly. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/11 "2018-05-25T16:22:33Z")
**Moderator Note** Let’s all dial it back, please. GQ is not the place to discuss posting styles or writing ability. The OP is clear enough that it can be answered factually, so let’s focus on that. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/12 "2018-05-25T20:13:09Z")
Another advantage to having birds eat your seeds, as opposed to mammals, is that birds tend to travel far, and so can disperse your seeds a great distance. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/13 "2018-05-26T00:01:46Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 1. My dog, who is acting typically for others of his species (I believe) has on more than one occasion chowed down red-oil chockfull of red pepper and seeds, and if he hated the first time would’ve learned and stayed away. Is that the case with all sorts of animals, but not us, for example? > > Or do “target” animals actually _like_ the damn things because of the capsaicin? Sugar seems a better come-on, but what do I know. Maybe its too high an energy drag cost to produce sweet seeds. While the first 2 parts have been answered, I don’t think the third has been. First keep in mind that there are a large number of dog breeds, with considerable variation in behaviors/preferences both between breeds and individuals, so defining “typical” behavior is tricky. Also consider that many dogs, especially when hungry, will opportunistically see-sniff-gulp down a food item in a fraction of a second; they don’t savour the flavour like we tend to do and smell/texture seem more important than flavour. I’ve found plenty of completely inedible stuff in dog shit. Dogs can also get very worked up and demonstrate obsessive prey drive or eating behavior despite intense discomfort; my best example of that was watching 2 large stray dogs casually walking along a river valley in a rural area, both with faces completely covered in porcupine quills. That amount of quills would have taken multiple lunges and attacks from both dogs who probably drove each other to keep attacking… I’m quite certain both dogs were dead within the week from the encounter but that never registered in their brains at the time they were attacking. Then consider that you’ll always have individual animals on the tail ends of a bell curve that will be attracted to or not deterred by a given stimulus. Those outliers don’t really drive evolution and it’s more important how _the majority_ behave than the exceptions. I’d say the typical reaction to capsaicin by most mammals is irritation or pain; there’s a good reason it’s used in defensive sprays for wildlife and humans. So while you’ll always find a small percentage of a population bucking the trend and wolfing down chilli oil-laced leftovers (or happily posting videos of themselves drooling and puking after eating capsaicin concentrates), most mammals will leave those plants alone and the trait will be passed on as an advantage. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/14 "2018-05-26T00:08:12Z")
I don’t know **why** capsaicin is acceptable for survival, but it obviously **is** acceptable for survival because the plants keep growing. Maybe it’s a disadvantage but only a minor one. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/15 "2018-05-26T00:54:18Z")
Wiki article says capsaicin in peppers conveys a reproductive advantage because mammal fruit-eaters have teeth (particularly molars) that endanger the seeds, whereas birds peck fruit-and-seed and typically pass seeds intact after carrying them a substantial distance. Also, capsaicin seems to have fungicidal effect on fruit-spoiling fungi. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/16 "2018-05-26T22:16:47Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Wiki article says capsaicin in peppers conveys a reproductive advantage because mammal fruit-eaters have teeth (particularly molars) that endanger the seeds, whereas birds peck fruit-and-seed and typically pass seeds intact after carrying them a substantial distance. Also, capsaicin seems to have fungicidal effect on fruit-spoiling fungi. I believe birds also typically have a fairly rapid digestive transit - so the seed coats don’t get a chance to be digested (although I think it is true that some types of seeds won’t germinate _until_ they have been through a bird). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/17 "2018-05-30T12:24:03Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > (although I think it is true that some types of seeds won’t germinate _until_ they have been through a bird). That’s usually true for men, except in the case of _in vitro_. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/18 "2018-05-30T13:33:27Z")
In tangentially related news; there has been work done on the use of chillis as elephant repellent, in both [Zimbabwe](http://www.elephantpepper.org/human-elephant-conflict-chilli.php) and [India](https://wildtech.mongabay.com/2016/09/hot-stuff-improving-chili-fence-effectiveness-protecting-crops-elephants/) ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/19 "2018-05-30T16:23:08Z")
> [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > While the first 2 parts have been answered, I don’t think the third has been. First keep in mind that there are a large number of dog breeds, with considerable variation in behaviors/preferences both between breeds and individuals, so defining “typical” behavior is tricky. Also consider that many dogs, especially when hungry, will opportunistically see-sniff-gulp down a food item in a fraction of a second; they don’t savour the flavour like we tend to do and smell/texture seem more important than flavour. I’ve found plenty of completely inedible stuff in dog shit. Dogs can also get very worked up and demonstrate obsessive prey drive or eating behavior despite intense discomfort; my best example of that was watching 2 large stray dogs casually walking along a river valley in a rural area, both with faces completely covered in porcupine quills. That amount of quills would have taken multiple lunges and attacks from both dogs who probably drove each other to keep attacking… I’m quite certain both dogs were dead within the week from the encounter but that never registered in their brains at the time they were attacking. > > Then consider that you’ll always have individual animals on the tail ends of a bell curve that will be attracted to or not deterred by a given stimulus. Those outliers don’t really drive evolution and it’s more important how _the majority_ behave than the exceptions. I’d say the typical reaction to capsaicin by most mammals is irritation or pain; there’s a good reason it’s used in defensive sprays for wildlife and humans. So while you’ll always find a small percentage of a population bucking the trend and wolfing down chilli oil-laced leftovers (or happily posting videos of themselves drooling and puking after eating capsaicin concentrates), most mammals will leave those plants alone and the trait will be passed on as an advantage. This makes me wonder about a tangential question - do animals learn about what certain visual indicators mean (eg. Thing that looks like chili pepper = spicy, or brightly coloured patterns = poisonous, etc) only through direct experience with the thing, or do they learn these things socially, or is it somehow instinctual? I am particularly interested in poisonous or venomous things - how do animals know to avoid them? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![ricksummon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ricksummon/32/3333_2.png) [@ricksummon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricksummon)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794/20 "2018-05-30T16:26:24Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Also, capsaicin seems to have fungicidal effect on fruit-spoiling fungi. According to SciShow on YouTube, this appears to be the primary function of capsaicin: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE\_OlyBhr1A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_OlyBhr1A) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/capsaicin-in-chili-seeds-and-plant-body-isnt-that-counterproductive-as-a-survival-strategy/814794.md?page=2)