# Captain America and Batman: "Super"heroes or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 18, 2009, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572 "2009-09-18T09:42:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/21 "2009-09-18T23:43:52Z")
I think one thing everybody is touching on is that there are comic book heroes who have powers and those that don’t. The ones who have powers are called “superheroes.” The ones who don’t are just heroes or costumed heroes or crime-fighters. Sgt. Rock, Nick Fury, Elektra, Shang-Chi, Robin, powerless '70’s Wonder Woman, James Bond, etc. would all fit into this category. Superman, the Flash, Iron Man, Green Lantern, Daredevil and Iron Fist would not. I believe Batman should go into the “super” category because of his super-intelligence as related to chemistry, engineering, forensics and criminology, as well as being able to build all of his Bat inventions (pre-Chris Nolan and Morgan Freeman. And he’s not a fricken ninja either.) He’s at least as smart as Luthor, who is clearly is a supervillain. Imho, in the past 10 years, there’s been a huge anti-intellectual movement in the US where intelligence was suddenly marginalized. This was never a discussion back in the 90’s. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/22 "2009-09-19T00:11:26Z")
No, they’re all superheroes, whether they have superhuman powers or not. It’s just that people started deconstructing the word “superhero” into “super” and “hero,” which it is not, no more than as “shortstop” is “short” and “stops.” ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/23 "2009-09-19T00:16:23Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Imho: > Batman: Super intelligence. He is a master chemist and criminologist. Imho, he excels in these fields like Braniac. Not just your opinion. A late '60’s World’s Finest comic had Supie remarking that the lock Batman designed was too tough for even Brainiac to crack. Let’s see. In the '60’s Bruce wayne and Lex Luthor were portrayed as smarter tahn Supie, and even smarter than Brainiac (in the case of BW at least). BW would presumably be also smarter than Brainiac 5. **Uh huh.** ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/24 "2009-09-19T02:15:47Z")
My rule of thumb for whether you’re a “super-hero” or just a “crimefighter” is this: what happens when you get cornered in a dark alley by five or six hoodlums armed with brass knuckles, clubs, and blackjacks? If you leave them lying on the ground unconcious or groaning in pain, you’re a super-hero. If you get the living crap beaten out of you, you’re just a “crimefighter” (on better days that that obviously). ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/25 "2009-09-19T02:25:57Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > My rule of thumb for whether you’re a “super-hero” or just a “crimefighter” is this: what happens when you get cornered in a dark alley by five or six hoodlums armed with brass knuckles, clubs, and blackjacks? If you leave them lying on the ground unconcious or groaning in pain, you’re a super-hero. If you get the living crap beaten out of you, you’re just a “crimefighter” (on better days that that obviously). So if the Atom or Ant-Man shrinks down and hides where the hoodlums can’t get to them, they’re not superheroes? ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/26 "2009-09-19T02:27:34Z")
Yeah, but when you start calling Batman a superhero, then you get people who will argue with you that he can fly and do other things and refuse to listen to you when you tell them “no, he can’t fly, why don’t you try reading some of his comic book titles?” ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/27 "2009-09-19T02:33:19Z")
> [@Shawn1767](#): > > Yeah, but when you start calling Batman a superhero, then you get people who will argue with you that he can fly and do other things and refuse to listen to you when you tell them “no, he can’t fly, why don’t you **try reading some of his comic book titles?** ” Yeah. Definitely I would recommend the Dark Knight (Frank Miller). He invented an armored suit and synthesized kryptonite. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/28 "2009-09-19T02:39:20Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > So if the Atom or Ant-Man shrinks down and hides where the hoodlums can’t get to them, they’re not superheroes? Since when do either the Atom or Ant-Man have to hide from anyone? They shrink down and THEN leave them lying on the ground unconcious or groaning in pain. Seriously, a “superhero” is someone who wins a fight that in real life you would lose 99.99% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![audreyayn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@audreyayn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audreyayn)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/29 "2009-09-19T02:44:28Z")
> [@True Blue Jack](#): > > A late '60’s World’s Finest comic had Supie remarking that the lock Batman designed was too tough for even Brainiac to crack. I was expecting this story to end “And then Brainiac cracked it.” Because Brainiac is supposed to be a lot smarter than the entire planet of Earth put together. Which is ridiculous, but canon. Anyway, being a superhero is not about having super powers. Even if it were, Batman has super-plot powers he gets from the writers, that allow him to beat people he shouldn’t even be able to look at without getting killed. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/30 "2009-09-19T02:47:38Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Since when do either the Atom or Ant-Man have to hide from anyone? They shrink down and THEN leave them lying on the ground unconcious or groaning in pain. > > Seriously, a “superhero” is someone who wins a fight that in real life you would lose 99.99% of the time. Ok, if Superman flies straight out of the alley to avoid the fight, he’s not a superhero? Your definition is purely based on combat skills. Many superheros have abilities not related to combat (Kitty Pride’s intangibility, for example.) ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/31 "2009-09-19T02:50:24Z")
> [@audreyayn](#): > > Anyway, being a superhero is not about having super powers. Even if it were, Batman has super-plot powers he gets from the writers, that allow him to beat people he shouldn’t even be able to look at without getting killed. But, there’s an entire class of superhero that get their powers from objects or equipment, e.g. Iron Man, Green Lantern, Box, etc. Without that equipment, they would get killed easily and repeatedly. Yet, they are still superheros. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/32 "2009-09-19T03:22:04Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Ok, if Superman flies straight out of the alley to avoid the fight, he’s not a superhero? Well now I’m doubting that any of your examples are superheros, based on their absolute determination to avoid confrontation. I mean, who wants to read about Retreatman, Negotiator Girl, or Camoflage Kid? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/33 "2009-09-19T03:59:43Z")
Posted by Superhal > [@](#): > > Ok, if Superman flies straight out of the alley to avoid the fight, he’s not a superhero? Well, then he’s just “super” but not necessarily a “hero.” ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/34 "2009-09-19T04:33:52Z")
Sounds like the question is really about whether they have \*\*superpowers \*\*or not. Of course they’re superheroes. As noted up thread, Captain America does have superpowers. The super soldier serum grants him super human endurance, speed, agility, and strength. Official Marvel policy is that he’s peak human, but has no superpowers. Clearly this is bunk. Super endurance aside, peak humans (think Olympic athletes) can’t be peak in all areas. The world’s fastest sprinter can’t hang with the power lifting champ or gymnast, etc. Batman doesn’t have superpowers, just hordes of writers making him out to be great – which he is. More recently, writers have backed off of the BatGod-best-at-every concept. He’s not the best martial artist for example. Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, and Lady Shiva are the acknowledged top three. He has remained the world’s greatest detective. I just wish more DC writers would bother with actual detective stories. Dini had a nice handful in the last few years. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/35 "2009-09-19T05:37:46Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Batman doesn’t have superpowers, just hordes of writers making him out to be great – which he is. More recently, writers have backed off of the BatGod-best-at-every concept. He’s not the best martial artist for example. Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, and Lady Shiva are the acknowledged top three. Hey let’s give some props to the deceased Karate Kid. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![audreyayn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@audreyayn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audreyayn)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/36 "2009-09-19T06:04:14Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > But, there’s an entire class of superhero that get their powers from objects or equipment, e.g. Iron Man, Green Lantern, Box, etc. Without that equipment, they would get killed easily and repeatedly. Yet, they are still superheros. That’s true, but the fourth Flash was deprived of his powers and got kicked to death immediately. Not really any different. (Also, I’ll bet there are people who lost their powers and acted as superheroes anyway, although I can’t think of any off of the top of my head.) Also, how are we defining superpowers? Many members of the Legion of Super-heroes have no powers that aren’t native to their species. Is telepathy a power if everybody on Titan has telepathy? You might argue that the Legionnaires are simply more skilled at using their natural abilities, just as Karate Kid is more skilled at using the natural abilities of a human. (As is Batman.) ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/37 "2009-09-19T11:36:57Z")
> [@audreyayn](#): > > (Also, I’ll bet there are people who lost their powers and acted as superheroes anyway, although I can’t think of any off of the top of my head.) The most famous example was Wonder Woman’s turn as kind of spy, from Wikipedia: “At the end of the 1960s, under the guidance of Mike Sekowsky, Wonder Woman surrenders her powers to remain in Man’s World rather than accompany her fellow Amazons to another dimension. A mod boutique owner, the powerless Diana Prince acquires a Chinese mentor named I Ching. Under I Ching’s guidance, Diana learns martial arts and weapons skills, and engages in adventures that encompassed a variety of genres, from espionage to mythology.” > **[Wonder Woman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_woman#Evolution_of_the_character)** > > Wonder Woman is a superheroine appearing in American comic books published by DC Comics, the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta. She is an Amazon and Olympian. The character first appeared in All Star Comics #8, published October 21, 1941, with her first feature in Sensation Comics #1 in January 1942. She was created by the American psychologist and writer William Moulton Marston (pen name: Charles Moulton), and artist Harry G. Peter in 1941. Marston's wife, Elizabeth, and their life partner, Oliv > [@audreyayn](#): > > Also, how are we defining superpowers? Many members of the Legion of Super-heroes have no powers that aren’t native to their species. Is telepathy a power if everybody on Titan has telepathy? You might argue that the Legionnaires are simply more skilled at using their natural abilities, just as Karate Kid is more skilled at using the natural abilities of a human. (As is Batman.) Well, I think we would have to use the human standard to measure “superpowers.” When Gulliver went to Lilliput, he didn’t get super strength or giant power, he was still human. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/38 "2009-09-19T12:22:38Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > ianzin: Back in the '50’s and '60’s, Batman regularly solved mysteries, using a wide variety of detective skills. Whether these were far enough ahead of big city police departments to merit the title of “The World’s Greatest Detective,” is a question of YMMV. Personally, I think some of these stories are fairly decent mysteries in their own right. In the 70s, there were a series of terriffic mystery-oriented Batman comics. Dunno who wrote them, Infantino drew. Nice. Definition of a Superhero: _Any sentient entity with powers, abilities, skills or technologies far in excess of those available to ordinary mortal men, who uses these assets to fight injustice & defend Humanity._ ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/39 "2009-09-19T12:57:51Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Hey let’s give some props to the deceased Karate Kid. 🙂 He’s not dead yet! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572/40 "2009-09-19T14:23:48Z")
> [@audreyayn](#): > > (Also, I’ll bet there are people who lost their powers and acted as superheroes anyway, although I can’t think of any off of the top of my head.) Storm. The real Storm, the one that should have been played by Grace Jones. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-and-batman-super-heroes-or-not/510572.md?page=3)