# Captain America: Civil War - Seen it! \[spoilers ahoy\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2016, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317 "2016-04-28T08:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/201 "2016-05-16T01:38:22Z")
I was out of town when it came out, so I just saw it last night. Wow. What an awesome movie…it hit every beat just right and knocked it out of the park. I can’t wait to see it again. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/202 "2016-05-16T01:56:05Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > One thing the movie somewhat conspicuously skirted is the issue with Thor regarding the Sokovia accords—he’s not a citizen of any of the signed countries, in fact, he’s not even human, so there’s not really any jurisdiction over him. Handed the document, he coulda just gone, ‘What care I for your human governments?’, and that’s that. > > Point being, the accords never really could have worked as intended, simply because the Avengers already factually operate outside of any and all law; passing _new_ laws isn’t going to change any of that. As the movie showed, having some of the Avengers accepting the authority of the law created consequences for those who don’t. The United Nations would presumably declare Thor or the Hulk as outlaws if they refused to accept the authority of the accords. And then they would send the Avengers to arrest them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/203 "2016-05-16T02:08:45Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Just now remembering that Scarlet Witch has _mind control powers_ that she didn’t use at all in this movie! > Perfect non-lethal tactic when doing battle with friends. She must have just _really_ wanted to throw cars at people. My take is that her mind control powers are pretty weak. They only work on people who aren’t even aware they exist and therefore are making no effort to resist them. That’s why Clint (who had previously been mind controlled) was able to shrug them off so easily. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/204 "2016-05-16T02:18:24Z")
She did use her mind control powers, she made Vision turn himself super dense. They don’t really go into Vision’s powers enough for anyone not familiar with him to notice though. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/205 "2016-05-16T02:48:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As the movie showed, having some of the Avengers accepting the authority of the law created consequences for those who don’t. The United Nations would presumably declare Thor or the Hulk as outlaws if they refused to accept the authority of the accords. And then they would send the Avengers to arrest them. Well, their Plan A was to just throw a bunch of guys with guns at them. Stark had to talk Ross into letting 50% of the Avengers try instead (and was given a tiny deadline before they went back to the ‘lots of guns’ idea). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/206 "2016-05-16T04:01:37Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > She did use her mind control powers, she made Vision turn himself super dense. They don’t really go into Vision’s powers enough for anyone not familiar with him to notice though. I don’t think she was controlling Vision’s mind in that scene, just his body. He seemed aware of what she was doing and was resisting her. If Wanda had mind controlled Vision, the scene would have ended with her telling him to go sit on the couch while she left quietly with Clint. Granted, being able to take over somebody’s body is a strong power in itself and we never saw her try it any other time. So if we want to fanwank it, we can theorize that it was part of Wanda’s control over physical objects. She was able to control Vision’s body because it’s artificial. But she isn’t able to take over from anyone who has a normal biological body, which makes this power pretty limited in its usefulness (although maybe she could have taken over Bucky’s arm and made him punch himself in the head). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/207 "2016-05-16T04:09:51Z")
Speaking of fanwanking, maybe Zemo’s plan to turn Tony against Bucky by showing him the video was just a last second improvisation. Zemo went to the Siberian base to kill the other Winter Soldiers. And maybe he planned on Steve and Bucky following him and had something planned which would have been another step in his master plan of turning the Avengers against each other. Maybe Zemo was planning on showing Steve the video in order to sow possible doubts about Bucky and put him in the position of keeping the secret from Tony. But then Tony showed up unexpectedly. And Zemo realized _“Hey, this works out great! I can show Iron Man the video instead with Bucky standing right next to him. My original plan was going to take another couple of weeks to get to the point where they’re trying to kill each other. This will save me a bunch of time.”_ ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/208 "2016-05-16T08:47:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > She was able to control Vision’s body because it’s artificial. But she isn’t able to take over from anyone who has a normal biological body I don’t see much difference (other than degree) between thrusting Vision’s artificial body through several stories of floors and alley-ooping Steve’s biological body up a few stories through a window or tossing Natasha’s biological body across a tarmac. She seems well enough able to take hold of and move another person’s body if she so chooses. I could easily see her pulling off the “Why are you hitting yourself? Why are you hitting yourself?” trick. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/209 "2016-05-16T09:00:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Speaking of fanwanking, maybe Zemo’s plan to turn Tony against Bucky by showing him the video was just a last second improvisation. Zemo went to the Siberian base to kill the other Winter Soldiers. And maybe he planned on Steve and Bucky following him and had something planned which would have been another step in his master plan of turning the Avengers against each other. Maybe Zemo was planning on showing Steve the video in order to sow possible doubts about Bucky and put him in the position of keeping the secret from Tony. > > But then Tony showed up unexpectedly. And Zemo realized _“Hey, this works out great! I can show Iron Man the video instead with Bucky standing right next to him. My original plan was going to take another couple of weeks to get to the point where they’re trying to kill each other. This will save me a bunch of time.”_ Maybe the Communomicon just drove him to madness. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/210 "2016-05-16T09:50:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As the movie showed, having some of the Avengers accepting the authority of the law created consequences for those who don’t. The United Nations would presumably declare Thor or the Hulk as outlaws if they refused to accept the authority of the accords. And then they would send the Avengers to arrest them. Well, but what basis would they have to declare anyone outlaw that wasn’t ever subject to their laws in the first place? Sure, they could send the Avengers, the military, etc., after them, but the point is that the accords never could have worked as intended on a team that already partially is comprised of members not subject to whatever legal structure ratifies them. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > My take is that her mind control powers are pretty weak. They only work on people who aren’t even aware they exist and therefore are making no effort to resist them. That’s why Clint (who had previously been mind controlled) was able to shrug them off so easily. I could be misremembering, but didn’t Clint just hit her with the electro-shock arrow tip before she could use her magic? Like, she’s sneaking up on him, all ready to work her mojo, but he just zaps her in the brain before? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/211 "2016-05-16T10:26:15Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Well, their Plan A was to just throw a bunch of guys with guns at them. Stark had to talk Ross into letting 50% of the Avengers try instead (and was given a tiny deadline before they went back to the ‘lots of guns’ idea). In retrospect, it’s kind of hilarious that Stark’s team is (a) Rhodey, who’s apparently been equipped with nonlethal sonics; (b) young Peter Parker, recruited for to web people up; (c) Natasha, a taser-toting grappler who wants to make sure everybody is still friends; (d) the Vision, who wants to turn the Falcon from a flyer to a glider; and (e) T’Challa, who wants to straight-up _murder_ Bucky: he’s just here to rip the guy’s eyes out before ripping the guy’s arm off and beating him to death with it, is all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/212 "2016-05-16T12:07:20Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Well, but what basis would they have to declare anyone outlaw that wasn’t ever subject to their laws in the first place? I’m not sure I follow you. Or the movie. Or whatever. Let’s go with Nigeria, since that’s where the big brouhaha happened to spark the whole thing with the United Nations when Wanda – who, again, was in Nigeria – used her weird powers and a lot of people died. Now, am I subject to the laws of Nigeria? Well, not really; I’m not on Nigerian soil, nor am I in Nigerian airspace. But if I were to show up at the Nigerian border, doesn’t my entry make me subject to their laws? If they say I can’t legally wave a gun around in public while naked from the waist down – look, that’s their call all the way, isn’t it? I can maybe thumb my nose at them in America, but I can’t stroll into Nigeria and declare that I’m above their pwecious wittle wegulations. So if Nigeria has signed the Sokovia Accords, then it seems to me that a super will be okay if he stays out of Nigeria – and repeat that for the triple-digit number of other countries. Oh, did Mexico sign them? Then don’t operate in Mexico, unless it’s under UN supervision – but you’re only subject to Mexican law in Mexico. Canada too? Then don’t set foot in Canada. Did the United States sign them too? Well, then, if a super-powered crimefighter shows up in New York City and announces that he’s not subject to American law, then we’ll treat him like any rambling moron in a ratty bathrobe who commits a crime and insists that he’s not subject to American law, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/213 "2016-05-16T12:08:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Speaking of fanwanking, maybe Zemo’s plan to turn Tony against Bucky by showing him the video was just a last second improvisation. Zemo went to the Siberian base to kill the other Winter Soldiers. And maybe he planned on Steve and Bucky following him and had something planned which would have been another step in his master plan of turning the Avengers against each other. Maybe Zemo was planning on showing Steve the video in order to sow possible doubts about Bucky and put him in the position of keeping the secret from Tony. > > But then Tony showed up unexpectedly. And Zemo realized _“Hey, this works out great! I can show Iron Man the video instead with Bucky standing right next to him. My original plan was going to take another couple of weeks to get to the point where they’re trying to kill each other. This will save me a bunch of time.”_ Yeah, that’s pretty much what I proposed a few pages back. Zemo wanted the video proving Bucky killed the Starks so he could use it later/post it on youtube - all the principals showing up just in time for a private screening was an early Christmas present. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/214 "2016-05-16T12:13:33Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m not sure I follow you. Or the movie. Or whatever. > > Let’s go with Nigeria, since that’s where the big brouhaha happened to spark the whole thing with the United Nations when Wanda – who, again, was in Nigeria – used her weird powers and a lot of people died. > > Now, am I subject to the laws of Nigeria? Well, not really; I’m not on Nigerian soil, nor am I in Nigerian airspace. But if I were to show up at the Nigerian border, doesn’t my entry make me subject to their laws? If they say I can’t legally wave a gun around in public while naked from the waist down – look, that’s their call all the way, isn’t it? I can maybe thumb my nose at them in America, but I can’t stroll into Nigeria and declare that I’m above their pwecious wittle wegulations. > > So if Nigeria has signed the Sokovia Accords, then it seems to me that a super will be okay if he stays out of Nigeria – and repeat that for the triple-digit number of other countries. Oh, did Mexico sign them? Then don’t operate in Mexico, unless it’s under UN supervision – but you’re only subject to Mexican law in Mexico. Canada too? Then don’t set foot in Canada. > > Did the United States sign them too? Well, then, if a super-powered crimefighter shows up in New York City and announces that he’s not subject to American law, then we’ll treat him like any rambling moron in a ratty bathrobe who commits a crime and insists that he’s not subject to American law, I suppose. But American law is also subject to the US Constitution. Do the Accords violate any constitutional protections? Then those parts of the accords are unenforceable. I’m sure many other countries that signed the accords have similar protections. So using your superpowers to fight crime, causing lots of collateral damage along the way? Almost certainly a crime in most countries before the Accords. Just happen to have superpowers, like Thor or Cap? Can’t possibly be a crime under US law. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/215 "2016-05-16T12:19:52Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > But American law is also subject to the US Constitution. Do the Accords violate any constitutional protections? Then those parts of the accords are unenforceable. I’m sure many other countries that signed the accords have similar protections. > > So using your superpowers to fight crime, causing lots of collateral damage along the way? Almost certainly a crime in most countries before the Accords. Just happen to have superpowers, like Thor or Cap? Can’t possibly be a crime under US law. IIRC, Ross said that they could either agree to UN oversight _or retire_. If that’s true, then you won’t be locked up for just having superpowers. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/216 "2016-05-16T12:28:39Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > She seems well enough able to take hold of and move another person’s body if she so chooses. I could easily see her pulling off the “Why are you hitting yourself? Why are you hitting yourself?” trick. I just assumed that she took control over the stone (I believe it’s the mind stone anyway) and since he gets his power from the stone, and she took it over, she could make him do whatever he wanted while he was powerless to stop it > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Zemo went to the Siberian base to kill the other Winter Soldiers. And maybe he planned on Steve and Bucky following him and had something planned which would have been another step in his master plan of turning the Avengers against each other. Maybe Zemo was planning on showing Steve the video in order to sow possible doubts about Bucky and put him in the position of keeping the secret from Tony.\* I’ve actually always wondered…why did Zemo kill the other Winter Soldiers? From the foreboding “I’m not the only Winder Soldier” line from Bucky I was under the impression that Zemo wanted to use the others as an army. Then we come to find out they’re all dead? I figured Zemo went to create said army, found them all dead, and went, “Well shit. Guess I’ll have to try something else” and then did the video reveal. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/217 "2016-05-16T13:15:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Speaking of fanwanking, maybe Zemo’s plan to turn Tony against Bucky by showing him the video was just a last second improvisation. Zemo went to the Siberian base to kill the other Winter Soldiers. And maybe he planned on Steve and Bucky following him and had something planned which would have been another step in his master plan of turning the Avengers against each other. Maybe Zemo was planning on showing Steve the video in order to sow possible doubts about Bucky and put him in the position of keeping the secret from Tony. > > But then Tony showed up unexpectedly. And Zemo realized _“Hey, this works out great! I can show Iron Man the video instead with Bucky standing right next to him. My original plan was going to take another couple of weeks to get to the point where they’re trying to kill each other. This will save me a bunch of time.”_ I like the idea. It shows that he has initiative and adaptability. Gives him more depth as a villain. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/218 "2016-05-16T13:22:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve actually always wondered…why did Zemo kill the other Winter Soldiers? I figure Zemo hates supers in general, even if he especially hates the Avengers in particular. So activating Bucky served the double purpose of getting him the location of the videotape and getting the Avengers to brawl with each other – leaving Rhodey crippled and Wanda straitjacketed and Steve a wanted fugitive and Tony a deputized agent trying to hunt him down – and, at that point, Zemo can either activate more Winter Soldiers for some reason, or he can kill them. He’s not going to sic them on Sam; Sam is already locked up. He’s not going to sic them on Scott; Scott is already locked up. He could, though, kill a bunch of supers right then, so he does – but with one caveat: > [@](#): > > I figured Zemo went to create said army, found them all dead, and went, “Well shit. Guess I’ll have to try something else” and then did the video reveal. I think it’s the other way around: he believed that spot was the location of both the videotape and the other Winter Soldiers, and he was _right_ – but if he’d gotten there and _hadn’t_ found the videotape he’d been after all along, he maybe would’ve shrugged and said “Well, shit; maybe I’ll activate the Winter Soldiers.” ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/219 "2016-05-16T14:52:02Z")
When Zemo got there - the other Winter Soldiers were alive (just sleeping ) - he specifically said in the movie (paraphrased) - “I killed them - you think I would let them loose on the world?” He was angry at the Avengers specifically - but wanted all ‘supers’ out of the way generally. Bucky was a convenient means to an end - something his research showed he could use to a very lethal advantage. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/220 "2016-05-16T15:05:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > IIRC, Ross said that they could either agree to UN oversight _or retire_. If that’s true, then you won’t be locked up for just having superpowers. I may be mixing the movie with what happened in Agents of SHIELD last week, where it was stated that the Accords “provide a framework for the registration and monitoring of all enhanced individuals.” The only thing I can see the Accords actually doing is make Supers under UN control and oversight, not just national oversight, and agreement that all countries will cooperate in tracking down rogues (like Cap). Because there’s no way whatsoever to claim the Avengers didn’t violate a ton of Nigerian laws as soon as they showed up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317.md?page=12)