# Captain America: Civil War - Seen it! \[spoilers ahoy\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2016, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317 "2016-04-28T08:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/221 "2016-05-16T15:06:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Errrrr, **Siam Sam** , it was not that she was uber patriotic, the doctors had stated that the shock of the change might kill her. 😉 Yes it was. That’s why it would have been such a shock, because she was so uberpatriotic. She was so gung-ho on communism and East Germany that she alienated all the other East Germans. I suggest you watch it again. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/222 "2016-05-16T15:09:00Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m not sure I follow you. Or the movie. Or whatever. > > Let’s go with Nigeria, since that’s where the big brouhaha happened to spark the whole thing with the United Nations when Wanda – who, again, was in Nigeria – used her weird powers and a lot of people died. > > Now, am I subject to the laws of Nigeria? Well, not really; I’m not on Nigerian soil, nor am I in Nigerian airspace. But if I were to show up at the Nigerian border, doesn’t my entry make me subject to their laws? If they say I can’t legally wave a gun around in public while naked from the waist down – look, that’s their call all the way, isn’t it? I can maybe thumb my nose at them in America, but I can’t stroll into Nigeria and declare that I’m above their pwecious wittle wegulations. > > So if Nigeria has signed the Sokovia Accords, then it seems to me that a super will be okay if he stays out of Nigeria – and repeat that for the triple-digit number of other countries. Oh, did Mexico sign them? Then don’t operate in Mexico, unless it’s under UN supervision – but you’re only subject to Mexican law in Mexico. Canada too? Then don’t set foot in Canada. > > Did the United States sign them too? Well, then, if a super-powered crimefighter shows up in New York City and announces that he’s not subject to American law, then we’ll treat him like any rambling moron in a ratty bathrobe who commits a crime and insists that he’s not subject to American law, I suppose. Well, but on this reading, it doesn’t really make any sense to have the heroes sign the accords—if it simply becomes illegal to carry out any non-UN sanctioned superheroics in the signed countries, then it doesn’t matter a damn whether, say, Bruce Banner signed the paper or not when he’s bustin’ shit up in a signed country; all that matters is that the country he’s in signed, and thus, are licensed to prosecute him with the force they deem necessary (or try to). I thought the accords not merely make non-authorized heroics illegal (after all, each of the signing countries could do that themselves, making them pretty redundant), but rather, served to draw up a kind of contract between the signing heroes and some regulatory body, avowing (on the heroes’ part) that they will only go into action once called upon to do so. But what does this mean when one of the heroes is an alien? Is there a worked-out interplanetary contract law? What authority does the UN have over a citizen of Asgard? That sort of thing. Sure, Thor could just decide to play by our rules; and if he doesn’t, we could decide to try and hold him accountable for breaking them. But, in some sense, that doesn’t need, nor is it strengthened by, signing some papers—that wouldn’t really be more than an empty gesture, it seems to me: even without those papers, Thor could decide to adhere to Earth law and custom, or not; and likewise, if we don’t like Thor’s actions, we could try to reign them in, accords or not. The whole thing just seems kinda, I dunno, redundant to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/223 "2016-05-16T15:10:42Z")
> [@simster](#): > > When Zemo got there - the other Winter Soldiers were alive (just sleeping ) - he specifically said in the movie (paraphrased) - > > “I killed them - you think I would let them loose on the world?” > > He was angry at the Avengers specifically - but wanted all ‘supers’ out of the way generally. > > Bucky was a convenient means to an end - something his research showed he could use to a very lethal advantage. I must have missed this line…thanks! Also, from that viewpoint, he sounds like Syndrome from The Incredibles ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/224 "2016-05-16T15:13:41Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Yes it was. That’s why it would have been such a shock, because she was so uberpatriotic. She was so gung-ho on communism and East Germany that she alienated all the other East Germans. I suggest you watch it again. I did, about 2 weeks ago. Not only was she not gung ho, it emerges at the end,that she intended to defect with her husband but was unable to go. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/225 "2016-05-16T15:17:59Z")
> [@simster](#): > > He was angry at the Avengers specifically - but wanted all ‘supers’ out of the way generally. > > Bucky was a convenient means to an end - something his research showed he could use to a very lethal advantage. That said, do we technically know that Zemo had the sleeper-agent codes for the other soldiers? I mean, Cap and Bucky seem to _assume_ it; and it’s a solid assumption for them to make, since they know that Zemo is heading there and knows Bucky’s longing-rusted-17-daybreak-furnace-benign-homecoming-1-freightcar code… …but while we see him acquire the journal with _Bucky’s_ activation phrase, did we ever see him get the other Winter Soldier activation phrases? Or did we learn that they all have the same activation phrase? Or is it possible that, in fact, he never actually found the ekki-ekki-ekki-ekki-PTANG-zoom-boing code for Soldier #2 and so said, _welp, can’t control this one, so I might as well kill him, eh?_ (Incidentally, what happens if Cap and Bucky arrive at the abandoned military base and Zemo fires up the PA system? “Longing,” he says. “Rusted,” he says…) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/226 "2016-05-16T15:23:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I did, about 2 weeks ago. Not only was she not gung ho, it emerges at the end,that she intended to defect with her husband but was unable to go. Ah, I see now. Good job of giving away the ending since that’s not revealed until the very end. Until then, everyone thought she was very gung ho. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/227 "2016-05-16T15:32:11Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Well, but on this reading, it doesn’t really make any sense to have the heroes sign the accords—if it simply becomes illegal to carry out any non-UN sanctioned superheroics in the signed countries, then it doesn’t matter a damn whether, say, Bruce Banner signed the paper or not when he’s bustin’ shit up in a signed country; all that matters is that the country he’s in signed, and thus, are licensed to prosecute him with the force they deem necessary (or try to). How does it not make sense for the heroes to sign? If it simply becomes illegal to carry out non-UN-sanctioned superheroics in those countries, then the first question asked is whether said superheroes have agreed to so serve as UN-sanctioned superheroes. > [@](#): > > I thought the accords not merely make non-authorized heroics illegal (after all, each of the signing countries could do that themselves, making them pretty redundant), but rather, served to draw up a kind of contract between the signing heroes and some regulatory body, avowing (on the heroes’ part) that they will only go into action once called upon to do so. Well, yeah; are we just arguing past each other? I figure a superhero either signs that agreement, or gets the full “lawbreaker” treatment when operating in one of those countries, or doesn’t operate in those countries (which is the whole “retire” bit). > [@](#): > > But what does this mean when one of the heroes is an alien? Is there a worked-out interplanetary contract law? What authority does the UN have over a citizen of Asgard? What authority do they have over him when he’s in Asgard? Meh. What authority do they have over him when he’s on their soil or in their airspace? What authority do we have over a Canadian or a Mexican or a Nigerian who comes here and starts breaking laws with or without actually presenting a passport at Customs? I kinda figured, like, something something _illegal alien_, something something _Donald Trump_. So I figure, if Thor signs on to UN oversight, he’ll be welcome to operate in those countries; and if he doesn’t, he won’t be. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/228 "2016-05-16T15:36:40Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > About the only thing that grated to me (and this was a flaw with the original comic book story as well, although for slightly different reasons) was the set up for the conflict. Maybe you can blame an ‘in character’ mistake, but of the three incidents Ross shows them, only Slovakia was really damning, and only if you knew Ultron was created by Stark. New York was clearly an outside threat, during which mind you the Avengers were under oversight (theoretically by some sort of global body). Washington had little to do with Supers at all and didn’t involve the Avengers. Well, you believe this only because you got to the see the movie, with its insight into the Avenger’s private thoughts and actions, and well-filmed scenes. From the perspective of the man on the ground, all he knows is that two groups of costumed super powered people laid waste to several cities, with thousands of casualties. These were 9/11 scale disasters or worse, and it’s not at all clear who started the fight, without the benefit of the perspective of a filmgoer. Seeing grainy footage of the Hulk rampaging through office buildings, I’m not sure I’d believe that he’s the good guy here. Also, I think everyone knows that Stark created Ultron. Remember, Ultron took over bodies that Stark created and was actively deploying around the world. This guy is super famous for defying Congress, and repeatedly creating killer robots that go berserk. It happened in IM 2, essentially, admittedly from a different contractor but still using his technology (and his best friend wearing a similar suit being the mouthpiece). People saw the battles from IM3 on the news as well. The public ought to be incredibly wary of Stark Industries, and rightly so! I’m sure some of the public believe that the Avengers mean well, but even so, death and destruction follow them everywhere. As cool as it is in a comic book, can you imagine how the public would react in the real world to super hero battles destroying entire cities four times a year, mostly around Memorial Day, a couple times during summer, and Christmas? ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/229 "2016-05-16T16:02:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So I figure, if Thor signs on to UN oversight, he’ll be welcome to operate in those countries; and if he doesn’t, he won’t be. That doesn’t really require him to sign anything, though; it’s enough if those countries decide whether he’s OK to operate there. I mean, you never signed anything where you promise not to murder people, did you? In a sense, it’s a question about who has authority to decree laws, and who is then bound by them. I could draw up pages upon pages of documents, with nobody giving a hoot. A nation on Earth could draw up laws about how aliens are supposed to behave—say, they create a law that all aliens need to register. Why would any alien (meaning here outer space, not Mexico) feel bound by such laws, anymore than you feel bound by the laws that I draw up? Furthermore, one could try and draw up a law saying that all aliens are subject to the laws passed on Earth; but clearly, this is going to work only if it weren’t necessary. Of course, any nation, due to its sovereignity, could just exercise force in order to get any aliens on their ground to comply, but that’s different from passing a law—they could do so regardless of whether any law to that effect is in place. So, any legislation is kind of redundant when it comes to these matters: we can ask any alien to comply, or we can (attempt to) force them to; but they’re not really bound by any law we pass. Whether there actually are any Sokovia accords simply makes no difference. But anyway, when it comes to the movie, they really were only a McGuffin to get the plot going, and as such, they did what they were supposed to, and the above really isn’t a criticism of the film. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/230 "2016-05-16T16:04:49Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I just assumed that she took control over the stone (I believe it’s the mind stone anyway) and since he gets his power from the stone, and she took it over, she could make him do whatever he wanted while he was powerless to stop it They haven’t really explained Wanda’s powers all that well. While watching the confrontation between Vision and Hawkeye I was immediately reminded of the time in the Avengers comic when Ultron was attacking the Avengers and no one could stop him until Wanda used her hex powers on him. She caused his body to start malfunctioning. I think what she did to Vision was cause his density-controlling ability to malfunction. She wasn’t controlling him per se, just messing with his body. ETA: oh, didn’t they say in the last Avengers movie Wanda couldn’t read Vision’s mind? Or did I imagine that? It seems common in fiction that when a telepath can’t read someone’s mind, they find that person interesting and probably end up dating. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/231 "2016-05-16T16:27:33Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > That doesn’t really require him to sign anything, though; it’s enough if those countries decide whether he’s OK to operate there. But, see, they’ve apparently decided that he’s OK to operate there if and only if he signs something. So, yeah, the second half of what you’re saying is true – but since the first half _is_ the second half, he’s still required to so sign. > [@](#): > > A nation on Earth could draw up laws about how aliens are supposed to behave—say, they create a law that all aliens need to register. Why would any alien (meaning here outer space, not Mexico) feel bound by such laws No, you’re glossing over my point: I don’t want you to parenthetically exclude Mexico, I want you to explicitly include it. Imagine our nation draws up a law that applies to someone who comes here from Asgard _or_ Mexico. Imagine someone then shows up in New York City and starts breaking said law. Imagine he says _“I don’t feel bound by your laws, for I am from Mexico”_ – how do we respond? Imagine he says _“I don’t feel bound by your laws, for I am from Asgard”_ – same reaction, right? Whatever you’d say to the guy from Mexico while he’s standing on US soil breaking US laws, you say exactly the same thing to the guy from Asgard. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/232 "2016-05-16T16:40:04Z")
OK, so this is developing into too much of a sidetrack, I think; to me, there’s a difference between Mexicans and Asgardians—the former are still part of the human race, and thus, at least part of the same framework, while the latter aren’t. But I think, in order to avoid cluttering up this thread any more, we should agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/233 "2016-05-16T16:44:45Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > I don’t see much difference (other than degree) between thrusting Vision’s artificial body through several stories of floors and alley-ooping Steve’s biological body up a few stories through a window or tossing Natasha’s biological body across a tarmac. > > She seems well enough able to take hold of and move another person’s body if she so chooses. I could easily see her pulling off the “Why are you hitting yourself? Why are you hitting yourself?” trick. I think there’s a difference. Moving a body around is just a physical act (or a mental act in Wanda’s case). But Wanda was using Vision’s powers to change his body density. This is the equivalent of using Magento’s magnetic powers or Mr Fantastic’s stretching powers. There’s a difference between moving a body and controlling the capabilities of that body. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/234 "2016-05-16T16:53:33Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Well, but what basis would they have to declare anyone outlaw that wasn’t ever subject to their laws in the first place? Sure, they could send the Avengers, the military, etc., after them, but the point is that the accords never could have worked as intended on a team that already partially is comprised of members not subject to whatever legal structure ratifies them. You don’t have to sign an agreement in order to be subject to a country’s laws. So countries can enact laws saying it’s illegal to use any superpowers and they apply to Thor, the Hulk, or anyone else regardless of whether or not they signed the accords. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/235 "2016-05-16T17:06:43Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I’ve actually always wondered…why did Zemo kill the other Winter Soldiers? From the foreboding “I’m not the only Winder Soldier” line from Bucky I was under the impression that Zemo wanted to use the others as an army. Then we come to find out they’re all dead? > > I figured Zemo went to create said army, found them all dead, and went, “Well shit. Guess I’ll have to try something else” and then did the video reveal. Bucky and Steve just assumed that Zemo was looking for the other Winter Soldiers in order to reactivate and recruit them. In their defense, seeking power to use for evil purposes is the usual villain routine. But as we saw, Zemo had a different goal; he was trying to eliminate what he saw as the threat of superpowered beings. And killing the Winter Soldiers was consistent with that. Zemo said he was trying to bring down an empire; they (and we) just didn’t understand what empire he was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/236 "2016-05-16T17:16:04Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That said, do we technically know that Zemo had the sleeper-agent codes for the other soldiers? I mean, Cap and Bucky seem to _assume_ it; and it’s a solid assumption for them to make, since they know that Zemo is heading there and knows Bucky’s longing-rusted-17-daybreak-furnace-benign-homecoming-1-freightcar code… > > …but while we see him acquire the journal with _Bucky’s_ activation phrase, did we ever see him get the other Winter Soldier activation phrases? Or did we learn that they all have the same activation phrase? Or is it possible that, in fact, he never actually found the ekki-ekki-ekki-ekki-PTANG-zoom-boing code for Soldier #2 and so said, _welp, can’t control this one, so I might as well kill him, eh?_ > > (Incidentally, what happens if Cap and Bucky arrive at the abandoned military base and Zemo fires up the PA system? “Longing,” he says. “Rusted,” he says…) \*\* Little Nemo sums this up well - \*\* > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Bucky and Steve just assumed that Zemo was looking for the other Winter Soldiers in order to reactivate and recruit them. In their defense, seeking power to use for evil purposes is the usual villain routine. > > But as we saw, Zemo had a different goal; he was trying to eliminate what he saw as the threat of superpowered beings. And killing the Winter Soldiers was consistent with that. > > Zemo said he was trying to bring down an empire; they (and we) just didn’t understand what empire he was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/237 "2016-05-16T17:28:09Z")
> [@simster](#): > > \*\* > Little Nemo sums this up well - \*\* Well, yes, but (a) it doesn’t answer my question of whether he actually had the option of activating them, or whether he never actually got the codephrases for the other Winter Soldiers; and (b) remember, he was perfectly willing to activate Bucky when he figured it would help him get the supers fighting each other; if he’d thought that activating another Winter Soldier – or reactivating Bucky – would help, then I figure he would have done it I agree that he didn’t think the other Winter Soldiers would be of use to him at that point, so he killed them – but I still don’t know if he could’ve controlled them, and I still figure he would’ve re-re-activated Bucky if he thought it would’ve helped. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/238 "2016-05-16T17:39:57Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, yes, but (a) it doesn’t answer my question of whether he actually had the option of activating them, or whether he never actually got the codephrases for the other Winter Soldiers; and (b) remember, he was perfectly willing to activate Bucky when he figured it would help him get the supers fighting each other; if he’d thought that activating another Winter Soldier – or reactivating Bucky – would help, then I figure he would have done it > > I agree that he didn’t think the other Winter Soldiers would be of use to him at that point, so he killed them – but I still don’t know if he could’ve controlled them, and I still figure he would’ve re-re-activated Bucky if he thought it would’ve helped. He re-activated Bucky to a) get the mission report b) cover his tracks c) possibly get the siberian location info I took his comment at face value - he had no plan to activate the final 5, was possibly surprised to find them still there - he went there to get the bits of info to help futher seperate Stark/Rogers - AND to insure that Stark would go all out against Bucky. I agree its unclear if he could have activated the 5 had he wanted to - but I don’t think he ever intended to. So, in the end his goal was to a) destroy the avengers from the inside b) futher sets the world against supers in general c) cleans up after himself with Bucky in the end. Not bad at all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/239 "2016-05-16T17:58:13Z")
> [@simster](#): > > He re-activated Bucky to > > a) get the mission report > b) cover his tracks > c) possibly get the siberian location info See, I figured there was a (d), the other thing that then actually happened: sparking a big fight scene between the supers. I mean, yeah, if that doesn’t happen, then he’s still got a perfectly good plan with (a)-(c); but that airport fight could’ve gone even better for him, to the point where he wouldn’t even _need_ (a)-(c) any more. I mean, as it played out, Rhodey got crippled; and if Tony had been even a touch angrier about that, Sam just plain _dies_ right after; but Scott slipping up with the contents of that truck could’ve wiped out who-knows-how-many supers, and who knows what happens if Natasha doesn’t switch sides to help Steve and Bucky escape T’Challa? It’s possible that Zemo gets all those supers killed right there! That’s best-case scenario for (d); worst-case for (d), there’s no fight; and somewhere in between for (d) is how it played out. Again, that’s assuming there _was_ a (d). Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/240 "2016-05-16T19:13:05Z")
Whether the heroes sign the accords has nothing to do with whether they can be arrested for super-heroing, I think. You don’t need to get everyone’s signature on a law changing the speed limit for it to effect everyone. Signing on to the accords meant agreeing to take orders from the UN. Not signing the accords meant you either retire your super tights, or you get arrested by the heroes who did sign the accords. Presumably, if Cap hadn’t been worried about the UN killing his best friend, he could have said, “I’m not going to be your supercop, but I respect the law. Here’s my shield; I’ll be down at the gym murdering punching bags,” and walked away a free man. Likewise, if all of the Avengers had sided with Cap, and none of them signed the accords, they’d _all_ have been outlaws. It wasn’t like they needed Tony’s signature to authorize the law going into effect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317.md?page=13)