# Captain America: Civil War - Seen it! \[spoilers ahoy\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2016, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317 "2016-04-28T08:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/341 "2016-05-27T11:06:19Z")
Having Ant-Man keep his normal mass is… problematic. How does a 180lb man, even a tiny one, ride on the back on a flying ant like one of those guys in _Joust_? How do _two_ men fight it out on top of a child’s toy table and not have it collapse under them, or why don’t they just punch through its plastic surface like lawn darts sinking into jello? How does the original Ant-Man carry around a keychain-sized tank, just for emergencies? This don’t make no sense t’all!! ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/342 "2016-05-27T12:06:43Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > True, but we really don’t see the giant ant do anything but walk and eat table scraps. Well, it was already established in the movie that the only way ‘living’ things could shrink/expand were if they were in a container (suits, glass cubes, etc) - so the Ant should not have grown anyway, atleast not without explosive results. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/343 "2016-05-27T12:15:33Z")
Shrink, yes. Expand, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/344 "2016-05-27T12:46:12Z")
Exoskeleton! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/345 "2016-05-27T12:46:38Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > True, but we really don’t see the giant ant do anything but walk and eat table scraps. But if it had only its original mass, it should have been floating in the air like a giant balloon - which is also what giant-sized Scott Lang should have been doing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/346 "2016-05-27T12:50:20Z")
Most of these inconsistencies could have been avoided if there had been a line in the movie saying the suit gave him the power to adjust both size and mass independently. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/347 "2016-05-27T13:23:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > _Ant Man_ also had an ant that got expanded up to dog size. Logically that should have been the same as Scott being expanded up to giant size. And if Scott kept the mass of his full size when he shrunk, how was he able to ride on ants? That movie really threw physics out the window. Yes, unlike previous Marvel films featuring scientist exposed to gamma radiation who could transform into an indestructqble giant green rage machine, a “genius billionaire playboy philanthropist” who builds a flying metallic shell capable of performing radical maneuvers with tens of gees of acceleration and withstanding direct hits from tank-fired penetrators, the alien with a hammer forged from netronium, and the apparently indestructible crew of a ship named after an 'Eighties teen star which can fly across half the galaxy in a few hours, _Ant-Man_ deviated in its laxity in adhering to basic physics and internal consistancy. Fotunately, the next Marvel film is about a genius surgeon trained in medicine, and will therefore be rigorously grounded in scientific fact. None of this shapeshifting or mucking about with the physics of reality for sure! Stranger ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/348 "2016-05-27T15:39:15Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > True, but we really don’t see the giant ant do anything but walk and eat table scraps. But we see the Thomas the Tank Engine crash through the wall of a house and crush a police car, when it’s mass should be like half an ounce. It ought to be basically composed of foam, yet it’s shown to have tons of mass. Hank Pym is actually a wizard pretending to be a scientist. It’s the only way that movie makes any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/349 "2016-05-27T16:44:27Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Yes, unlike previous Marvel films featuring scientist exposed to gamma radiation who could transform into an indestructqble giant green rage machine, a “genius billionaire playboy philanthropist” who builds a flying metallic shell capable of performing radical maneuvers with tens of gees of acceleration and withstanding direct hits from tank-fired penetrators, the alien with a hammer forged from netronium, and the apparently indestructible crew of a ship named after an 'Eighties teen star which can fly across half the galaxy in a few hours, _Ant-Man_ deviated in its laxity in adhering to basic physics and internal consistancy. > > Fotunately, the next Marvel film is about a genius surgeon trained in medicine, and will therefore be rigorously grounded in scientific fact. None of this shapeshifting or mucking about with the physics of reality for sure! I said a comic book movie didn’t obey the laws of physics. And you’re upset. Because somehow you’ve concluded I said comic book movies obey the laws of physics. Have to admit I don’t follow the chain of logic you used to arrive at that conclusion. Nor do I understand why you’re so worked up over it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/350 "2016-05-27T17:16:02Z")
I think his point is that pointing out the lack of realistic physics in a superhero movie is a bit like pointing out the abundance of water in the ocean. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/351 "2016-05-27T17:25:40Z")
JSexton: > [@](#): > > But we see the Thomas the Tank Engine crash through the wall of a house and crush a police car, when it’s mass should be like half an ounce. It ought to be basically composed of foam, yet it’s shown to have tons of mass. Oh, yeah, I forgot about that bit. I guess Ant-Man had a lot more questionable logic than I realized my first time watching it. I suppose that enjoying the ride and not noticing these is a sign that Ant-Man was a pretty engaging movie. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/352 "2016-05-27T17:38:26Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Yes, unlike previous Marvel films featuring scientist exposed to gamma radiation who could transform into an indestructqble giant green rage machine, a “genius billionaire playboy philanthropist” who builds a flying metallic shell capable of performing radical maneuvers with tens of gees of acceleration and withstanding direct hits from tank-fired penetrators, the alien with a hammer forged from netronium, and the apparently indestructible crew of a ship named after an 'Eighties teen star which can fly across half the galaxy in a few hours, _Ant-Man_ deviated in its laxity in adhering to basic physics and internal consistancy. > > Fotunately, the next Marvel film is about a genius surgeon trained in medicine, and will therefore be rigorously grounded in scientific fact. None of this shapeshifting or mucking about with the physics of reality for sure! > > Stranger I grant you there are acceleration issues with Iron Man. But other than that, he was always my favorite because (other than, I suppose, the non-superpowered martial arts-oriented heroes) he was the most plausible in the Marvel Universe. ETA: Not sure why you put “genius billionaire playboy philanthropist” in scare quotes. Genius billionaire playboys obviously exist, and I’d bet some of them give significant sums to charity. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/353 "2016-05-27T17:40:52Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > JSexton: > > Oh, yeah, I forgot about that bit. > > I guess Ant-Man had a lot more questionable logic than I realized my first time watching it. I suppose that enjoying the ride and not noticing these is a sign that Ant-Man was a pretty engaging movie. Yeah, most of my “wait, wtf?” moments when we were talking about the movie later. It’s still super fun and I have re-watched it several times. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/354 "2016-05-27T20:23:55Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Not sure why you put “genius billionaire playboy philanthropist” in scare quotes. Genius billionaire playboys obviously exist, and I’d bet some of them give significant sums to charity. I think he was quoting the line from the movie. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/355 "2016-05-27T20:55:55Z")
According to the [MCU wiki](http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Pym_Particles), Ant-Man’s Pym Particles can shunt mass to, or gain mass from an extra dimension, so it’s not as simple as weighing 180 lbs at different sizes. Good enough for me. Once you introduce extra dimensions and slap a “quantum” label on it, you can do what you want. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/357 "2016-05-27T21:20:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I said a comic book movie didn’t obey the laws of physics. And you’re upset. Because somehow you’ve concluded I said comic book movies obey the laws of physics. > > Have to admit I don’t follow the chain of logic you used to arrive at that conclusion. Nor do I understand why you’re so worked up over it. I’m not upset or worked up over the insistance by some that the Marvel movies should have internally consistent (even if not consistent with actual) physics. I just find the degree of pedantry amusing in films that are clearly on the far side of science fantasy. That Marvel has done such a good job justifying their various superhero origins and powers as being somehow grounded in reality that people are suddenly drawn out by a shrinking man not demonstrating consistency with conservation of mass is impressive. The reality is that not a single of the Avengers is techincally plausible, even the ostensibly non-enhanced Hawkeye or Black Widow (who can apparently knock grown men over with her hair). Cap’s vibration-absorbing shield and Hulk’s supermagical growth/healing factor are no more plausible or internally consistent than Ant-Man’s shrinking and growing powers, and the whole “unregulated shrinking into the Quantum Realm” is pure fantasy. And there is aboslutely no explanation for Vision’s anti-gravity and force projection powers except “Infinity Stone”. Scarlet Witch has even less; her presumably Kree genetics let her violate basic physics at will. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I grant you there are acceleration issues with Iron Man. But other than that, he was always my favorite because (other than, I suppose, the non-superpowered martial arts-oriented heroes) he was the most plausible in the Marvel Universe. The Iron Man suits are not even vaguely plausible. Even aside from the inexhaustable power supply and propulsion system that apparently requires no propellant, the materials science, guidance and control systems, thermodynamic control, aeroloading, and of course the synthetic intelligence system that operates it for Mr. Stark are all so far beyond plausibility as to be as fantastical as anything in _Star Trek_. Don’t get me wrong, Tony Stark is great fun when he’s not building apocalyptic kill-bots, and the whole testing sequence in the original _Iron Man_ (“Yeah, I can fly.”) is one of my favorite scenes from the movie. But neither the basic technology nor the things he does when equipped with it are remotely plausible. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/358 "2016-05-27T22:08:08Z")
Not remotely plausible in our 2016 world? Or not remotely plausible even if it’s the year 4016? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/359 "2016-05-27T22:20:57Z")
So, I just read the Captain America where he’s revealed as a Hydra agent. It’s good. Art is strong, the writing is natural and funny. I’m always a sucker for scenes of henchmen negotiating benefits. And it builds really nicely to the reveal - the whole issue is narrated by Steve, and in his internal monologue, it’s clear he still thinks he’s doing the right thing, even as he’s throwing another hero out of an airplane. There’s a minor subplot about why organizations like Hydra are seductive to so many people, for reasons beyond just hating on people eno are different, and they do a great job of creating a parallel between a young Hydra suicide bomber, and Steve’s own childhood that sets up the big reveal very nicely. And I’m going with time travel as my explanation for why Cap suddenly switched sides. The comic cuts back and forth between present day, and the Depresssion, when Steves a little kid. His dad is beating in his mom, when a woman named Elisa Sinclair shows up, kicks Rogers Sr.'s ass, and befriends Cap’s mom. Elisa is upper class, successful, and is clearly deliberately targeting Mrs. Rogers for recruitment. Why? She’s just a random factory worker, but Elisa knew who she was before they first met. And she makes a comment, at one point, about how she’s “sure” that Steve - a sickly, skinny eight year old - is destined for great things someday. So, as it happens, the Red Skull has a daughter. Goes by the supervillain name “Sin.” My guess is, Elisa Sinclair is Sin, travelled back in time to indoctrinate Steve into Hydra from a young age. I’m betting the story ends with some selection of fiber,piracy superheroes going back to the '30s to fix the timeline, presumably before a Evil Steve can complete dome bit of villainy in the present day. This looks like the start to a really cool arc. I’m definately on board for issue two, at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/360 "2016-05-28T05:50:31Z")
One other thing I haven’t seen mentioned anywhere on the 'net: Sharon Carter is about sixty in this book. [Scroll down to the last image on this article to see what she looks like now.](http://io9.gizmodo.com/this-might-explain-why-captain-america-is-evil-now-1779170994) Maybe there’s something I missed in a recent book explaining that, but I’m pretty sure she was a young woman the last time we saw her. I’m telling you. Time travel. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317/361 "2016-05-31T10:14:15Z")
**Miller** , interesting. As a side note, I really liked the Sam Wilson Captain America panels! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-america-civil-war-seen-it-spoilers-ahoy/753317.md?page=19)