# Captain Bligh **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [November 26, 2008, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533 "2008-11-26T06:26:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JDGates](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@JDGates](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDGates)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/21 "2008-11-27T16:05:57Z")
It’s a bit misleading to cite the _Hermione_ as an example of Royal Navy shipboard punishment without pointing out that Capt. Pigot’s behavior led to one of the bloodiest mutinies of the era. It’s also misleading to refer to Bligh as “the seventh-highest ranking officer in the Royal Navy” once reaching Vice Admiral of the Blue; by his time, there was more than one officer holding each admiral rank, except for the top spot. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/22 "2008-11-27T20:10:01Z")
A bit off topic, but has anybody ever tasted breadfruit? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/23 "2008-11-27T21:30:47Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > That’s one I must see. I believe it’s the first movie in Daguerreovision. 🙂 Lincoln went to the theatre to see it. Got a splitting headache. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/24 "2008-11-27T23:08:06Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > A bit off topic, but has anybody ever tasted breadfruit? [An entire GQ thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=431837) from last year addressing exactly this question in some detail. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/25 "2008-11-28T02:45:04Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > You’re still pushing. And you’re still nitpicking. Again, I said “most stories and movies”. That’s a larger category. Movies are a subset of “stories and movies”. > [@CalMeacham](#): > > Walter Cronkite might not be obscure (actually, he might be these days. He hasn’t done the news in ages), but that show surely was. Factually incorrect statement. The show was [nominated for 4 Emmies, won two, and won a Peabody Award.](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045458/awards). It was popular enough to get parodied by Bugs Bunny. That is surely not obscure. > [@CalMeacham](#): > > And I mentioned the Brando movie in my piece. Actually, no, you didn’t: > [@CalMeacham](#): > > But the 1935 movie of “Mutiny on the Bounty” and the 1980s film “The Bounty” both DO cover this > [@CalMeacham](#): > > And you’re only listing the sources exhaustively to try to reclaim the point. No. I’m listing the sources exhaustively because I actually did the research. I spent time and effort on this piece, I didn’t just toss it off from a few online sources. That list comes mostly from Pew, Curtis E. “Mutiny on the Bounty (ex-Bethia)”, _Journal of Maritime Law & Commerce_,31:4, 2000 > [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’ll grant you that most people aren’t aware of Bligh’s navigating feat (and that my experience is atypical), but it’s pretty clear to me that the three movies conastitute most people’s exposure to the story, and that saying that most stories and movies ignore Bligh’s doings is only really correct if you only count the 1960s film. That’s the only point I was disputing. Which seems contradictory to me. If most people are only aware of Bligh through the two or three movies mentioned, wouldn’t they be aware of his navigating feat? Your historical knowledge has been well-demonstrated on this Board. Most people, including the questioner, don’t have that kind of knowledge. Whatever stories or movies constitute the average person’s exposure to Bligh, what happened after the mutiny is (a)poorly-known and (b)incredible. It deserved to be highlighted in my article because it cuts directly to the core of what the questioner asked about: Why did Bligh get more commands and promoted? I would have been lax if I didn’t mention it and also put it into context. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/26 "2008-11-28T04:38:36Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > Factually incorrect statement. The show was [nominated for 4 Emmies, won two, and won a Peabody Award.](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045458/awards). It was popular enough to get parodied by Bugs Bunny. That is surely not obscure. Welcome to the AAGP (_American Association of Geezer People_). Events that we vividly remember happening “yesterday” are so far in the past that they predate the births of more than half our population. (Did you know that there are grandparents who were not born when they filmed the last episodes of _Maverick_ and _Cheyenne_?) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/27 "2008-11-28T05:22:25Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > (Did you know that there are grandparents who were not born when they filmed the last episodes of _Maverick_ and _Cheyenne_?) In some neighborhoods, there are grandparents who weren’t born when the last episode of _Speed Buggy_ was filmed. ---
**Author:** ![Fearless\_Dingo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ed655f/32.png) [@Fearless\_Dingo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fearless_Dingo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/28 "2008-11-29T08:38:14Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > [Three, in fact.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/hub/A3970352) > > **The Mutinies at Spithead and the Nore** In fairness to Bligh I don’t believe he was among the officers that the mutineers at Spithead initially demanded were removed. Sadly I don’t have my reference books to hand but I seem to recall that while he was removed from his ship at the Nore Bligh afterward pleaded the case of his crew resulting in most being pardoned and none being hanged. It should also be remembered that Bligh fought well at the battles of Copenhagen and Camperdown and was singled out for praise by Nelson after Copenhagen. On the other hand (and the Staff Report omits this) Bligh was court-martialled and reprimanded for his behaviour after he disagreed with his first lieutenant aboard HMS Warrior. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/29 "2008-11-29T15:11:44Z")
One factor that I think was important was that the _Bounty_ crew had been to Tahiti. Most Royal Navy sailors led a miserable life but they didn’t know any alternative - life was nasty, brutish, and short but they figured that was just the way of things and didn’t expect any better. But the _Bounty_ showed up at a tropical island paradise and had to spent several weeks there waiting for the breadfruit trees to be ready to harvest. The crew got to hang out on the beach with the island women. The contrast between this life and normal navy life made what had seemed okay now seem unbearable. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/30 "2008-11-30T22:22:00Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Right – Captain/Governor Bligh may have been a great navigator, but he seems to have lack the personal relationship skills that are needed in a good manager. Yeah, there was clearly something about the guy that just rubbed people the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/31 "2008-11-30T22:40:30Z")
I read the Trilogy cited above when I was just a kid; it completely fascinated me to the point that I read it about a jillion times. Now, my memory has lost it. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/32 "2008-12-01T17:27:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > One factor that I think was important was that the _Bounty_ crew had been to Tahiti. Most Royal Navy sailors led a miserable life but they didn’t know any alternative - life was nasty, brutish, and short but they figured that was just the way of things and didn’t expect any better. But the _Bounty_ showed up at a tropical island paradise and had to spent several weeks there waiting for the breadfruit trees to be ready to harvest. The crew got to hang out on the beach with the island women. The contrast between this life and normal navy life made what had seemed okay now seem unbearable. You make a very important point about the Bounty mutineer’s motivation. I perhaps should have raised this under a discussion of alternative explanations for Christian’s actions if Bligh wasn’t as bad as the original questioner had thought. Christian was, after all, one of those that had taken up a native “wife” on Tahiti. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/33 "2008-12-01T17:29:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Welcome to the AAGP (_American Association of Geezer People_). I _really_ hope this isn’t one of those organizations where you need to wait 6-8 weeks for your wall certificate and laminated member’s card. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/34 "2008-12-20T08:40:07Z")
## One thing I noticed in the article is that it says on Bligh’s second try, “This time the trees arrived safely in England.” I don’t think that’s right. The point of the mission was to deliver them to the Carribean, where they might grow, and not to the colder climate of Britain. > [@Fearless\_Dingo](#): > > In fairness to Bligh I don’t believe he was among the officers that the mutineers at Spithead initially demanded were removed. Sadly I don’t have my reference books to hand but I seem to recall that while he was removed from his ship at the Nore Bligh afterward pleaded the case of his crew resulting in most being pardoned and none being hanged. According to [James Dugan](http://www.amazon.com/Great-Mutiny-James-Dugan/dp/1125329602) 31 members of his crew were singled out for punishment but Bligh succeded in having 19 of them removed from custody before trial. In the end, no one from his ship was hanged even though it was the last to surrender. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/35 "2008-12-21T16:41:37Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > One thing I noticed in the article is that it says on Bligh’s second try, “This time the trees arrived safely in England.” I don’t think that’s right. The point of the mission was to deliver them to the Carribean, where they might grow, and not to the colder climate of Britain. You are correct insofar as the eventual destination of the breadfruit was the Carribean, but Bligh’s mission was to bring sample breadfruit trees back to England. In some sense, the muntiny on the _Bounty_ was a result of the American Revolution. Britain’s Carribean plantations needed food that the laborers weren’t given time to grow themselves. After the Revolution, the nearest and cheapest source of foodstuffs was cut off (or at least more expensive). Sir Joseph had the idea that the breadfruit could be transplanted there, grown with almost no labor, and feed the slaves/indentured servants. That process would be doomed to failure, however, if nobody in the Carribean knew what conditions the trees needed. Bligh brought the trees back to England for study by botanists so that the botanists could then bring the trees and the correct cultivating advice to places like Jamaica. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/36 "2008-12-26T13:14:05Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Right – Captain/Governor Bligh may have been a great navigator, but he seems to have lack the personal relationship skills that are needed in a good manager. In this he was just following in the steps of Cristopher Columbus, another great navigator who managed to antagonize pretty much everybody he met and who was ultimately sent back to Spain in chains. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/37 "2008-12-26T20:02:43Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > Most people are unaware of… what an astounding achievment the open-boat voyage was. I’m not sure how heavily to weigh, “[Captain Bligh’s Portable Nightmare](http://www.amazon.com/Captain-Blighs-Portable-Nightmare-Safety-4/dp/0060195320)” in comparison with other resources, but the book focuses almost entirely on the voyage in the launch after the mutiny and depicts Bligh as an ass trying to make himself out to be a hero at the expense of his crew. There are several claims that John Fryer could have also made the journey and was almost entirely disregarded by Bligh because of animosity between the two. The book also covers a formal inquiry that took place in Java. (…I believe… I don’t have the book in front of me, but I can fill in the blanks later if anyone would like.) Fryer and others from the launch did not make any complaint against Bligh and all answered Bligh’s own question the same way, that there was nothing the captain could have done differently to change the outcome of the mutiny. One of the interesting questions I came away with was whether Bligh should have stopped on any more islands to refresh supplies and let the tortured crewmen rest. Obviously, the events on Tofoa heavily influenced Bligh’s decision to head for Timor without stopping, but I have to wonder if another man might have tried to get assistance from, for example, the Fiji islanders. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/38 "2008-12-30T15:25:49Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I’m not sure how heavily to weigh, “[Captain Bligh’s Portable Nightmare](http://www.amazon.com/Captain-Blighs-Portable-Nightmare-Safety-4/dp/0060195320)” in comparison with other resources, but the book focuses almost entirely on the voyage in the launch after the mutiny and depicts Bligh as an ass trying to make himself out to be a hero at the expense of his crew. Well, Bligh’s lack of interpersonal skills is well-established, as others have also noted above. Whether he was trying to play the hero or just trying to do what he thought was right is pretty speculative. > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > There are several claims that John Fryer could have also made the journey and was almost entirely disregarded by Bligh because of animosity between the two. If anyone had cause to complain of his treatment by Bligh, it was Fryer. Bligh frankly treated Fryer like dirt. I don’t know, and I don’t think anyone does, whether another officer could have navigated from the area of the mutiny to Timor in such a voyage. The fact is, Bligh did do this, unaided and without adequate tools for the job. Toohey’s book I think supports the idea that Bligh’s accomplishment is both stunning and undervalued by history. > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > The book also covers a formal inquiry that took place in Java. (…I believe… I don’t have the book in front of me, but I can fill in the blanks later if anyone would like.) Fryer and others from the launch did not make any complaint against Bligh and all answered Bligh’s own question the same way, that there was nothing the captain could have done differently to change the outcome of the mutiny. This was the inquiry by the Admiralty back in England after the arrival of Bligh and his crew. Fryer and the other crew’s responses were probably limited by the possibility that putting some of the blame on Bligh’s shoulders for the mutiny would be very dangerous for whoever accused him. Each man knew that the consequences of accusing Bligh, or even not supporting him fully, ranged from merely having a stigma of sympathisizing with the criminals to being possibly considered an accomplice to the mutiny. > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > One of the interesting questions I came away with was whether Bligh should have stopped on any more islands to refresh supplies and let the tortured crewmen rest. Obviously, the events on Tofoa heavily influenced Bligh’s decision to head for Timor without stopping, but I have to wonder if another man might have tried to get assistance from, for example, the Fiji islanders. Interesting question. Of course, if Bligh’s interpersonal skills were good enough to have done that halfway across the Pacific, here may not have been a mutiny in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/39 "2008-12-30T16:24:08Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > This was the inquiry by the Admiralty back in England after the arrival of Bligh and his crew. .. No, there was an incident in Java and the Dutch held a hearing with some of the men, including Fryer, I believe, chained as prisoners. Again, I am without the book at hand, but I will try to get some specifics… if there is some doubt. > [@](#): > > Interesting question. Of course, if Bligh’s interpersonal skills were good enough to have done that halfway across the Pacific, here may not have been a mutiny in the first place. I agree that the issue of whether or not another person _could_ have accomplished the task is speculative and that Bligh’s interpersonal skills are notorious. To a certain extent though, it is reasonable to ask whether Bligh’s accomplishment was more grueling than it needed to be. Bligh may have had more issues than simply not being a people person. Crossing thirty five thousand miles of open ocean is an incredible feat, granted. Doing it with only a sextant and one’s personal memory of the charts is incredible. But the challenge would have been mitigated by fresh provisions and rest. Only one person died between the mutiny and the arrival of the launch in Timor, but at least two died shortly after and only twelve made it back to England. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533/40 "2008-12-30T21:59:37Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > No, there was an incident in Java and the Dutch held a hearing with some of the men, including Fryer, I believe, chained as prisoners. > Again, I am without the book at hand, but I will try to get some specifics… if there is some doubt. Ok, yes, looking back at my notes, you are correct that there was an initial investigation by Dutch authorities in Timor. My notes don’t, unfortunately, give me any indication of how formal this was or under what authority it was convenved. I’d have to go back to my sources to find that. OTOH, this means there were two opportunities for Bligh’s remaining crew to express displeasure to outside authorities that they passed on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/captain-bligh/474533.md?page=3)