Car batteries - why no standard size?

Checked online battery sites and the batteries are indeed different - sometimes for the same model. A 2002 530i can use a 94R, 95R, or 49. BMW used different sizes from the factory. The 95R and 49 sizes have more cold cranking amps. A BMW 325 might use a 48 or a 94R. The admonition in the catalogs is to check your original battery for CCA and size.

The 3 series might have a 2.5L inline 6 cylinder or a 3.0L.
The 5 series might have the 2.5 or a 3.0L, or a 4.0L V-8.

Different batteries depending if the car has a cold climate option or engine size.

Lots of other cars share these same size batteries; it’s not that they are unique to a particular make and model. Whatever fits and provides sufficient power for starting under expected climate conditions and accessory load.

That’s basically what the Honda Insight’s battery is. It’s 84 batteries that add up to a hair over 100 volts. You can do a google image search to find quite a few pictures of them. They just look like rows of D batteries.

Now, the actual battery for starting the Insight was a tiny little thing, about the size of a motorcycle battery. That stupid thing couldn’t even jump start another (tiny car) and I sat there with the cables hooked up and revving the engine for about 30 minutes. I don’t know what was going on. FTR, I did bring a ‘regular’ car over after that and the dead car started right up, but my insight was a no go.
I was surprised when I opened the hood, to see such a tiny battery. That battery has to start the engine, not only considerably more often than on a regular car, but the insight as some kind of special starter that starts the car really quickly since it has to go from being off to being drivable in about the amount of time it takes you to move your foot from the brake to the gas.

So I’d like to add something to the discussion. It’s technically feasible, with electric vehicles, to make a modular car that is easy to repair.

EV technology inherently leads to more modularity. You can use hub motors instead of larger central ones, and hub motors are easier to replace and service. Each subsystem - brakes, steering, etc - can be independent and small enough to easily remove and replace.

The batteries are thousands of cells in parallel. It is feasible to design the pack where there is a straightforward way to get access to the top of it and to swap out a failed. BMS systems could tell you which one.

It’s even feasible to make the in-car display/management system include the technical manuals and service instructions when things go wrong. I’m imagining when something is detected as failing, you get a “service recommended” notification. You’d be able to hold your finger down on “advanced mode” and get a prompt for information how to fix the problem yourself, with a liability disclaimer. It would show a vector diagram of the car with the problem highlighted, and tapping on various bits would bring up relevant sections of the service manual.

You could even go so far as to have a scannable bar code for the needed replacement part that apps like the Amazon app could recognize. Hold your phone over the displayed code and the store page for replacement battery cells or a replacement hub motor or replacement motor driver comes right up.

And yes, standardization of the parts would help as well.

My thought is that it might give the manufacturers who offered cars made this way a competitive advantage. It wouldn’t happen immediately, but they’d gradually build up a reputation.

assumes facts not in evidence.

they also add unsprung mass, which has a negative effect on handling and ride quality. also, putting the motors in steerable wheels means you’re constantly flexing high-voltage cabling which is an enormous ball of hurt.

how so?

no, they’re in a series/parallel configuration.

this is nonsense. much of the advances in cars over the past 40 years is designing them such that the owners don’t need to work on them.

Hub motors weigh very little. Cable flexing is a problem but a solvable one. How do you think hydraulic oil gets to your brakes?

Thanks for being a total pendant about the series/parallel. What I was simply trying to say is that EV batteries have inherent redundancy in many designs, and that each one is quite small. Easy to keep driving until the spares arrive.

The reason EVs mean lighter systems is each system can be made independent. Engine based cars have a lot of limitations on component placement (engine compartment is a crowded place) and the brakes, the power steering, the air conditioning, the heater core, and so on are all systems tied intrinsically to the engine.

With an EV, the backup brake accumulator can be a module that uses an electric motor and some type of hydraulic accumulator. It can in principle be made all in one piece, so replacing it is a matter of disconnecting the hydraulic lines and electrical/data connector.

The AC compressor can similarly be a single module, and placed somewhere other than the engine compartment. The power steering need not be a mess of buried components but can just be an electric motor mounted on the steering rack. Heating would come from either resistive strips or running the AC compressor in reverse.

Its 6 cells in series. Each cell is designed to have a large surface area and its the convultions which makes you think its “many”… its definitely only 6 vials of electrolyte in series to make 12 volts.

But yes each one could be seperated. But that actually its environmentally friendly to have larger batteries that are left at the workshop rather than carried around as spares and refuse.

Thats because your 12 volt source was no good at charging the 12 volt lead acid battery ,it didn’t reach charging voltage. And the source couldn’t provide the current to drive the starter motor…

You aren’t charging the other battery from your alternator are you? You are providing current to turn the other starter.

Batteries are a collection of cells. Couldn’t electric car batteries use a standardized cell type, and just have more or less of them depending on what the car needs? Then, if it fails, swap out cells instead of the whole battery.

I was just reading about repairing battery powered drills. The batteries are made of several small batteries. They do not all fail at the same time.

jz78817 is an engineer in the car biz; I’m not.

ISTM that standardized parts in any application is all about “close enough good enough”. Once the state of the art is such that every part doesn’t need to be bleeding edge optimized, *then * and only then do you develop the technical trade space in which to decide to get lesser performance in exchange for lower batch costs, inter-model or even inter-competitor interchangeablility, etc.

IMO a lot of the parts standardization on late model cars has been by stealth. Once the major manufacturers merged and joint-ventured themselves down from 50 enterprises to 7 or 10 the natural variation of “families” (if not so much “species”) in the ecosystem declined a bunch.

The second major business innovation was shared second tier suppliers. Once e.g. GM and Ford are both buying brakes or alternators from a single supplier, suddenly *that *supplier has a strong incentive to converge the designs and push GM & Ford to use the exact same alternator, not one that differs only in trivial and predominantly nonfunctional details. Carry that pressure forward through the last 30-ish years and 4 or 5 model generations and the process is mostly complete.

The major brands today are doing far more than mere “badge engineering”. But at the same time they’re choosing an awful lot of parts, minor subsystems, and even major subsystems from other peoples’ parts catalogs. While at the same time, everybody at all levels in the supplier chain are pushing the delivered state of the art gently from well behind the bleeding edge. Standardized implies non-bleeding edge; it does *not *imply primitive or stagnated.
Bottom line: As and when electric vehicle motor, battery, and running gear systems are similarly commoditized and universalized I’d expect to see your prediction come true. Until then, simply making the damn stuff work with acceptable performance and price *is *the secret sauce of each and every EV/hybrid program on Earth.

You’re not going to be buying commodity secret sauce anytime soon.
As to onboard support for owner maintenance: It is to laugh.

When I sell my current car I expect I will have opened a car hood or handled a wrench or screwdriver on a car for the last time in my life. And I expect to drive for another 30+ years. And I say that as a former gearhead who used to own & operate a performance car repair & hop-up shop.

Cars now are (or are expected to be) reliable sealed appliances that you buy, use up, and get rid of before the first thing breaks a decade or more later. That’s what the public is clamoring for; not an onboard tech manual that describes to $500 of specialized tools you need to buy to fix the whatsis.

If the whatsis needs fixing in the first decade the car is already an engineering failure from the consumer/driver POV. That’s not the way to “gradually build up a reputation”. Or rather a reputation will build up, but it won’t be the one the manufacturer can withstand.

You can’t mix and match cells on the fly, if that’s what you are talking about. The cells in a battery need to be matched, and charged/discharged together. In a parallel configuration, if you connect cells that aren’t at the same voltage, the higher voltage cells will charge the lower voltage battery - and do so much faster than is safe for the cells. In a series configuration, some cells will fully discharge first, and the other cells will reverse-charge the already depleted cells - also very bad for those cells.

That doesn’t mean modular cars are feasible. Cars still need to work well as a whole package, constrained by interior space, exterior size, weight, aerodynamics, safety, aesthetics, etc.

Think about this - the components in a laptop are mostly independent components. But no major manufacturer makes modular laptops - maybe a couple different battery sizes and upgradable HDD/RAM, but that’s about it. The most high-end laptops don’t even have user-replaceable batteries, because customers would rather have a sleek lightweight laptop than one that’s user-configurable.

It’s also about cost and reliability. Who pays of all this extra wire and terminals required to string along separate cells in series, the end consumer. Who pays when one of these extra terminal corrodes and cause the system to fail, the end consumer. Who gets mad at the car company for making a system like this with known failure modes, the end consumer. The end consumer votes with his pocket book and goes to another car company that doesn’t have cells strung together with extra parts that add no value.

Relative to an internal combustion engine, sure. Relative to the normal unsprung mass of a car (wheels, tyres, brakes, most of the suspension and the drivetrain) they weigh a colossal amount. A heavy wheel doesn’t follow the contour of the road. It just bounces endlessly unless the suspension is set up to damp it properly, which basically means butter-soft. The effect on ride and handling could be approximated by trying to drive Fred Flintstone’s car down a bumpy road.

There are hundreds of electric or hybrid vehicles on the road today. There is one that uses hub-mounted motors.

The entire notion of full modularity in the design of a vehicle is one of those things that is a great idea in principle but of limited practicability. The chief problem with modularity is that it requires common interfaces, and those interfaces can and will drive design decisions which add weight and complexity in order to provide the flexibility for different applications. As an example, there is in theory no reason every passenger car couldn’t use the same fuel tank, or at least a “modular” tank that mounts in the same way with different volumes based upon the engine fuel consumption and desired range. Practically speaking, that would drive many other aspects of the vehicle design, from suspension to chassis stiffness to the visual styling of the vehicle. So every car design essentially has its own uniquely conformal fuel tank.

The notion of being able to have swappable cells or banks within a battery pack is another thing that may seem desirable in principle but unworkable in practice. In addition to the issue of needing to match performance aptly described by scr4 (which is not some minor pedantic issue; it’s a fundamental necessity), just having to design a battery pack to be capable of being readily serviced in situ is not practical or even desirable. As I noted previously, in many electric cars the structure of the pack that houses the cells forms an inherent part of the vehicle structure because of how large it is, and therefore can’t have large access doors or other service ports. The enclosure also has to be able to resist intrusion by water and other liquids, penetration by road objects, and protect the cells in an impact in order to prevent gross leakage and shorting that could result in a fire (and the electrolyte and matrix materials in modern NiMH and LiPo/LiON batteries is both flammable and toxic), so you don’t want hatches or covers that can pop off or be left open during inexpert servicing. As the cells age, their performance degrades in predictable ways that are tracked by modern battery power management systems; suddenly swapping in new cells or banks is going to disrupt that and result in poor performance and reduced lifespan. And from a liability standpoint as a vehicle or battery manufacturer, I wouldn’t want to permit an owner or uncertified mechanic to swap OEM cells out with poor quality aftermarket or counterfeit cells that could pose a fire or explosion hazard. And even with OEM cells they need to be installed correctly and soldered or mechanically fixed in place to assure safe and reliable functionality.

You’ll note that there are many systems in a vehicle that are serviceable only at the major component level, e.g. you can buy a complete water pump but not individual components like valves or motors within the pump. This is because it is not only easier and cheaper to design a unitary system for initial installation or later servicing, but also because line replaceable single unit systems are inherently more reliable and less prone to being improperly installed or serviced. This would appear to be more wastage–you can end up throwing away a “perfectly good” pump just because of a small crack in a connector or a broken impeller–but the intent is to actually assure the same reliability in a unit replaced in the field as one installed during original assembly.

As a mechanical/aerospace engineer and occasional designer of things that go bang/wham/crunch/chop, I’ve work on a number of systems intended to be modular. Sometimes modularity makes sense, but often it is imposed as a requirement at the top level without real consideration for the significant design compromises to accommodate a theoretical need for modularity that provides little actual benefit or value in practice.

The discussion regarding the unsprung weight of hub motors has already been adequately addressed, so I’ll only make the point that while electric vehicles offer a number of efficiency benefits and potential reduction in service (using a minimal amount of fluids, pumps, valves, flexible belts, and other moving mechanical systems that tend to wear or fail prematurely if not adequately services) they have substantial deficits in many respects to internal combustion engine-powered vehicles, are not immune from environmental damage or degradation from poor service, and are still on the steep part of the technological maturity curve, as witnessed by many of the service issues seen with Tesla and others. That is not to say that it isn’t a welcome technology that is worthy of investment and development, and the essential fungibility in energy source by itself is a significant advantage (e.g. battery electric vehicles can be charged with power developed from coal, gas, sun, wind, nuclear fission, geothermal, genetically enhanced superhampsters) versus internal combustion engines which require a certain class of liquid or compressed gas hydrocarbon fuel, but they’re hardly a panacea to all of the service and safety issues faced with modern internal combustion engines which are a very mature and surprisingly reliable technology despite all of the moving parts and fluids.

Stranger

In theory this works, the problem is each cell that makes up a battery needs to be on the same sheet of music so to speak, in terms of voltage, temperature, internal resistance. Long strings of series-connected cells are subject to this problem. One bad cell can cause problems, start leaking, go into “reverse voltage” etc.

assuming you’re talking about the traction/propulsion battery, they do. Tesla uses standard-format 18650 Li-Ion cells, and I think they’re moving to 20700s soon. GM uses prismatic/pouch cells which can be made in any form factor you want. The problem is that the traction battery in an EV/HEV needs to output around 270-400 volts DC, and a Li-Ion cell is only nominally 3.7 volts. So you need to “cluster” cells in a series/parallel arrangement to both reach your target battery voltage and be able to supply enough current. Which gets to the heart of the matter; in order to get usable range per charge (>200 miles) you need to stuff so much battery into the car you’re basically building the car around it. that in and of itself kind of precludes a “modular” design. Plus, Tesla and GM use liquid cooling to manage battery temperatures, so they kind of have to be sealed units.

I meant parallel in the sense of reliability, actually. You can remove any single battery (or several, depending on where they are in the network) and the car will still drive fine. So if one fails, the sensible thing to do would be to remove it and keep driving until the replacement arrives.

No, that’s not correct.

Stranger

My source for hub motors and the modularity is from someone’s hand built EV. Maybe not the best source, but it showed it is possible to build one that you can just swap parts on. The hand built EV was essentially 3 major components :

2 battery packs, and it used lithium-iron cells that look like a double size D-cell. 2 motor controllers, which are sealed modules. And 2 hub motors in the front.

All I’m saying is, to me this looked like a viable starting point for a design. You could in principle install the 2 battery packs in places where someone can reach them without too much hassle. Such as at the back of the frunk, under the liner (which can be light enough to just remove), with a fire-resistant hatch door you can lift to reach the cells. The second one could be under the rear seats.

Battery management systems can handle charge balancing. And the idea of an in-car helpful diagnostic system to tell you what needs to be swapped was a straightforward extrapolation. The BMS can detect failed cells by them failing to maintain their voltage like their peers or failing to charge, and inform the in-car display. The motor controllers could be self-diagnosing, and while they are $1000 pieces of equipment, I’m saying they are just some heavy duty plugs and a few screws. You could make them designed to be swappable by just about anyone. Ditto most everything else.

As for making the car like a laptop - not feasible. You can make high quality batteries such that only a couple cells fail during a 10 year period, but the difference between 2 cells failing/10 years and 0 is an immense and impractical quality barrier.