# Car drivers vs. bicyclists (again) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209 "2017-06-17T15:58:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/21 "2017-06-17T19:32:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m a cyclist, so if I have any bias in the matter, it’s probably in favor of fellow cyclists. And I still see an awful lot of really bad cyclists. I’m not even talking about hogging the lane (which is legal but rude and foolish) or ignoring stop signs: I mean ignoring red lights and riding on the wrong side of the road. And I really wish that the police would ticket these scofflaws, because how can we expect to be extended the same rights as other drivers when we’re not held up to the same responsibilities? > > That said, there are some real jerks out there in motor vehicles, too. Not all that many, but there are definitely some. I’ve been honked unnecessarily, too. I’ve also been cut off, and had garbage thrown at me. What’s most baffling, though, is on at least two occasions, I’ve had drivers yell at me because I _wasn’t_ running red lights. I don’t know what the logic is, there. This is why I hate these threads, some people are selfish and some people are assholes and the mode of transportation they take probably doesn’t change that fact much. Unfortunately actor-observer bias will probably never allow individuals to separate an individuals actions from their mode of transportation. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/22 "2017-06-17T19:58:33Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > What close calls? “As a pedestrian or passenger,” not a driver. I take public transportation, walk, and, yes, bicycle. Though bicycling was much more often back when I was a teen. > [@](#): > > 've seen too many bicyclists nearly end up as someone’s hood ornament after blowing a stop and not noticing the turning vehicle. The plural of anecdote is not data, I note how you ignored the part where even laws that changed stop signs to yield signs for bikes didn’t change crash statistics significantly. I stop at stop signs, mostly because being a commuter and utility rider it isn’t a huge issue to get moving again for me, but as someone who was off my bike for several months the past year after being hit while walking my dog I get annoyed when people try to equate or claim that bike riders are more culpable which is what your post did. Bikes have to be mindful of pedestrians, as pedestrians are more vulnerable due to the actions of the bike rider; cars need to be more mindful of bike riders, as bike riders are more vulnerable due to the actions of the driver; hunters need to be mindful of their backstops, as others are more vulnerable due to the hunters actions. The risks of bike riding are actually pretty low when everything is factored in, but public policy and opinion are based on irrational fear and not reality. Due to the slower velocity, slower acceleration and lower potential damage a bike rider treating a stop as a yield is significantly less dangerous to others than a car driver. In fact the reason for those stop signs is due to the inherent risk in automobiles. But it is a ridiculous example anyway, most urban planners are moving to traffic calming devices when they can because of the low compliance for stop signs and the fact that in residential areas they can actually increase accidents due to non-compliance or cars “racing” to get to the next spot. While better than open intersections they are a cherry picked example relating to safety issues with motorized traffic. It doesn’t mater if the normal human bias is the cause for you choosing the example or not. It really doesn’t relate to the OP which was talking about driver who get all pissy when another user utilizes what tends to be the majority of publicly accessible land in urban areas. I don’t bike ride to save the planet, I bike ride because it is faster and avoids issues with finding parking while providing exercise. I own cars, motorcycles and bicycles and bike year round. The fact that you admit that you haven’t ridden much recently demonstrates that you are probably primarily a recreational rider. This does not invalidate your needs or concerns, but most recreational riders severely overweight some less likely risks while also dismissing some options because they seem scary or are trying to be polite. While this is still antidote I have found that drivers tend to be far less stressed if I do the safest option and take the lane when they don’t have enough room to pass. As at least you are in view and more predictable. The tiny fraction of riders that will blow a stop sign at high speed are indicative of a very small subset of riders and fairly low risks. Unfortunately some of these actions will require methods that self-entitled drivers will find annoying. Taking the lane, or bumping forward in the stoplight queue will always make them fume because they don’t view you has human, and feel that you should put your life at risk so that they can save 7 seconds. They don’t realize that at surface street speeds if there are more than a handful of stoplights that their trip time will actually not be effected at all. But mostly they just are so selfish that they would rather you die then share community resources…but the [Tragedy of the commons - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons) will not be solved in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/23 "2017-06-17T20:16:55Z")
[A fun video of a New York intersection](https://vimeo.com/24572222) (skip to 0:35). Cars and pedestrians commit their share of violations. But no one beats the bicyclists on the sheer _variety_ of violations. Riding against traffic, completely ignoring the signals, switching sides of the road mid-intersection, riding on the sidewalk, and so on. In dense traffic, bicycles are as fast as cars but far more maneuverable. Not a great combination in terms of traffic safety. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/24 "2017-06-17T20:57:17Z")
A lot of the problem of bicyclists running stops signs (and probably red lights) is due to drivers. No, not the asshole drivers, rather the ones that are too polite, and they outnumber the assholes by a considerable margin. I’m a bicyclist and I get this a lot: I reach a all-way-stop intersection at the same time as a car and the car has the right-of-way because they’re to my right. Or maybe they’re to my left but reached it a little before me, so they still have the right-of -way. Yet the driver, being too polite, waves me through. If this happens frequently to lots of cyclists, they’ll get the notion that they always have the right-of-way. It’s an unconscious effect, but they’ll internalized that most drivers will expect them to go in that situation. So they stop coming to a full stop or even slowing down at all. Personally, I never go, no matter how much the motorist waves at me. If they have the right-of-way, I always wait for them to take it. Sometimes they get upset with me about it, but I don’t care. You might say I’m on a one-person crusade to retrain these drivers about the rules of the road. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/25 "2017-06-17T21:11:11Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > [A fun video of a New York intersection](https://vimeo.com/24572222) (skip to 0:35). > > Cars and pedestrians commit their share of violations. But no one beats the bicyclists on the sheer _variety_ of violations. Riding against traffic, completely ignoring the signals, switching sides of the road mid-intersection, riding on the sidewalk, and so on. In dense traffic, bicycles are as fast as cars but far more maneuverable. Not a great combination in terms of traffic safety. Yet despite a huge rise in bike ridership [new york pedestrian deaths are lowest on record](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/02/nyregion/new-york-pedestrian-deaths-are-lowest-on-record.html?_r=0) But I have to commend you on providing a video to fit your biases. The identified #1 cause of traffic deaths in NYC is speeding. > **[vision-zero-year-3-report.pdf](https://www.nyc.gov/assets/visionzero/downloads/pdf/vision-zero-year-3-report.pdf)** > > 8.17 MB And nothing with those violations were related to bicycling as a mode of transportation but have a lot to do with biased infrastructure mixed in with a bunch of idiots. Also note in that video that the only “crash” was with cars, and that with a rough count through the video cars were also violating in an almost equal proportion. Some of those “violations” are also not violations in much of the country, not safe but still. With that said I am going to call out that video as BS, if you look at the description. > [@](#): > > By summer 2010,\*\* the expansion of bike lanes\*\* in NYC exposed a clash of long-standing bad habits — such as pedestrians jaywalking, cyclists running red lights, and motorists plowing through crosswalks. > By focusing on one intersection as a case study, my video aims to show our interconnection and shared role in improving the safety and usability of our streets. Please identify the bike lane there, or how bike lanes caused that. Also I will provide this video that shows the challenges in the city without conforming to your view. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ADUhqva9PwU/hqdefault.jpg "My Commuted Commute") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADUhqva9PwU) ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/26 "2017-06-18T12:02:53Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > You know, I hear people complain all the time about: “These asshole bikers”. But I don’t recall ever running into one (Heh, excuse the pun). > > What is it these “asshole” bikers are supposedly doing? Going slow? Because that’s not something that can really be helped. I used to work in one of two office parks off a main road, accessible only by a winding, two-lane road that followed a lake. A group of cyclists – and it was always the same asshole group – would ride five or six abreast in the lane, trapping cars behind them. During rush hour. Those are the only ones I’ve (metaphorically) run into. I did lay on my horn a few times and may have yelled “MOVE OVER!” I don’t honk at other cyclists; a good friend is a bike messenger and has been hurt more times than I can count. Broken arm, broken ribs, hella road rash, broken leg last year. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/27 "2017-06-18T12:24:19Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Expecting bicyclists to have a good sense of self-preservation is not absurd. Car vs. bicycle at an intersection, bicycle loses. When a cyclist breaks the rules, it’s often to IMPROVE safety. As suggested by this article: > **[Cyclists break the law due to safety concerns, study says](https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/cyclists-break-the-law-due-to-safety-concerns-study-says-20141008-1138cn.html)** > > In the occasionally fractured world of Sydney cycling and cycling politics, not even the bike riders themselves would claim to play by the rules. I’m not saying this makes it OK, but sometimes it does seem as if following the rules is not the safest thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/28 "2017-06-18T12:48:53Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > **I used to work in one of two office parks off a main road, accessible only by a winding, two-lane road that followed a lake. A group of cyclists – and it was always the same asshole group – would ride five or six abreast in the lane, trapping cars behind them. During rush hour.** > > Those are the only ones I’ve (metaphorically) run into. I did lay on my horn a few times and may have yelled “MOVE OVER!” > > I don’t honk at other cyclists; a good friend is a bike messenger and has been hurt more times than I can count. Broken arm, broken ribs, hella road rash, broken leg last year. Winding two lanes roads generally lack shoulder space to allow cars to pass safely. Unless there’s a marked bike lane, a cyclist has a right to the lane whether there’s one of a bunch. If there’s not enough room to pass one rider, there’s not enough room to pass a group in single file. Passing at close proximity to a single file group increases the chances of a collision, instead of taking a few seconds to pass too closely, you’re passing too closely over a half minute or more. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Terrific](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tom_terrific/32/342_2.png) [@Tom\_Terrific](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Terrific)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/29 "2017-06-18T13:10:46Z")
Where I live is rural, winding roads, and very hilly. The roads are smooth and well paved, not potholed. The problem is the roads are narrow. If you are following a dually truck down a straight section of road, the right rear tire will be touching the white line while the outside left rear tire is touching or within an inch of the yellow line. Now add in a group of bicyclists, and no passing areas for 5 or 6 miles at a stretch. Honestly I am shocked there hasn’t been a bunch of accidents. We have groups of riders almost every day. Sometimes large groups. I used to get pretty impatient but now it is more resigned to this is just the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/30 "2017-06-18T13:40:58Z")
About ten years ago I moved from a pretty rural area with no one-way streets to a beach community with many. The move took place in the winter when there are few cyclists. At stop signs crossing one-ways I became accustomed to looking only in the direction of oncoming traffic before crossing (any pedestrians would be apparent as I approached the stop sign). Then summer came and I almost hit some bikers riding the wrong way. I got “motherfucked” etc. They were clearly wrong but so was I. Around here this wrong-way riding during tourist season is the most common violation that I see and, IMHO, one of the most dangerous. I always look both ways now. ---
**Author:** ![Lucky\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Lucky\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky_Mike)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/31 "2017-06-18T13:51:40Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > [A fun video of a New York intersection](https://vimeo.com/24572222) (skip to 0:35). > > Cars and pedestrians commit their share of violations. But no one beats the bicyclists on the sheer _variety_ of violations. Riding against traffic, completely ignoring the signals, switching sides of the road mid-intersection, riding on the sidewalk, and so on. In dense traffic, bicycles are as fast as cars but far more maneuverable. Not a great combination in terms of traffic safety. Well, that is pretty objective evidence every sub group has morons. Debate over 😛 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/32 "2017-06-18T14:06:17Z")
Stop arguing. It’s the pedestrians who are the problem. ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/33 "2017-06-18T15:19:17Z")
I saw [this sign](http://think.direct.gov.uk/images/Cyclists-ride-centrally-on-narrow-lanes200x300.jpg) on the back of a London bus yesterday. I like this sign. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/34 "2017-06-18T15:23:10Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I know this has been beaten to death but what makes certain drivers think its a good idea to get close to someone on a bicycle and then lay on the horn? Just 30 minutes ago I was riding on a heavily traveled four land road. This is a tourist area and bicycles at this time of the year are ubiquitous. Not so much on this particular road but in general. The road has wide shoulders, I’m guessing eight feet and I was riding in the two feet furthest from the travel lanes - nowhere near traffic. This asshole got pretty close and laid on the horn as if he was about to hit me. He scared the shit out of me as he zoomed by IN THE PASSING LANE! You could have, quite literally, driven a bus between us. I promptly flipped him the bird (I gotta stop doing that. It’ll probably get me killed some day.) but I guess he didn’t see or care. There were no other cars anywhere around. Maybe he had a passenger who though it would be funny and reached over and honked the horn or maybe it was an accident. And maybe Trump will go down in history as our greatest President. While things have vastly improved for cyclists over the past few years, there is still a subset of drivers who think bicycles have no right or business being in the roads. Heck, I think we’ve had a couple of people on the dope who have stated outright that they think the law doesn’t allow for cyclists in the roads. You got one of those. Yes, I’ve had my share of drivers who were incensed that they might have to change lanes to pass. > [@](#): > > Not ten minutes later I was on a road in a commercial district going very slow due to congestion. Different driver, same thing. Now, you may think “Hey, maybe its you!” but I assure you I was being careful and following the rules in both instances. If you feel you really must sound your horn, a quick toot will do it. Blasting the horn at close range is stupid and unsafe. I cycle some and drive a lot more. My observation is that asshole drivers outnumber asshole bikers by a huge margin. Was this guy honking at the people in front of you? He’s still an asshole - i’ve seen people honk at drivers ahead of them yielding to crossing pedestrians - but many drivers think like Home Simpson and think the horn is a secret weapon to get traffic out of their way. Yes, I’ve had drivers behing me honk and yell at me to get out of the way when I was all of 3 feet behind the bumper of the car in front of me. My usual reply is to stop and yell “Oh, like _i’m_ the problem?”. Can’t say what effect it has. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/35 "2017-06-18T15:28:48Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > When **I** ’m in my car, the bikers are assholes. When **I** ’m on my bike, the drivers are assholes. Bold mine What is the common element here, that my friend is the asshole you have been seeing. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/36 "2017-06-18T15:54:52Z")
Here in the Central Valley California, there are lots of designated bike lanes. Generous ones too. But invariably cyclists will ride two or three across bleeding over into the “car” lane. I don’t mind if a bike needs the whole lane, honestly. But why be dick just because? Claiming you have the legal right to ride in the car lane when you have a wide designated safe lane doesn’t keep you from being an asshole. That and flagrantly disregarding other traffic laws (running stop signs, riding against traffic, and my favorite… darting across multi lane roads willynilly causes a lot of animosity. By the way, yes I’m a bike rider. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/37 "2017-06-18T16:07:36Z")
> [@ticker](#): > > I saw [this sign](http://think.direct.gov.uk/images/Cyclists-ride-centrally-on-narrow-lanes200x300.jpg) on the back of a London bus yesterday. I like this sign. When I took my motorcycle safety class they taught us that as well. We were taught to always try to take up as much space as a car. I learned my lesson on my first day out. I was stopped at a red light, waiting to make a right (on red) and a car decided that he could pull up between me and the car to my left. Sure, he fit, but he was damn near on my foot. The ‘take up as much space as a car’ lesson click real fast that day. Situation depending, of course, I stop in the middle of the lane at light to make sure someone can’t try to sneak around me. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/38 "2017-06-18T16:27:22Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > That and flagrantly disregarding other traffic laws (running stop signs, riding against traffic, and my favorite… darting across multi lane roads willynilly causes a lot of animosity. OK, so we are back down to the old school hate-ons here. You realize the same can be said of car drivers, right? Except the flagrant disregard there involves speeding, using the cell phone while in motion, turning right on red where signs prohibit, or my favorite: unsafe passing that threatens not only cyclists but oncoming drivers. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/39 "2017-06-18T16:39:30Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > OK, so we are back down to the old school hate-ons here. You realize the same can be said of car drivers, right? Except the flagrant disregard there involves speeding, using the cell phone while in motion, turning right on red where signs prohibit, or my favorite: unsafe passing that threatens not only cyclists but oncoming drivers. My favorite was a guy who took a video of me on my recumbent trike _while he was driving_ (it was obvious the video was taken from the driver’s seat), and posted it on Facebook saying “is that safe?” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209/40 "2017-06-18T16:46:35Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > My favorite was a guy who took a video of me on my recumbent trike _while he was driving_ (it was obvious the video was taken from the driver’s seat), and posted it on Facebook saying “is that safe?” I’d say “Are you shitting me?” but I know better, having seen what people do with their phones when driving. (I mean, texting I get on some level - its still dumb and dangerous as fuck, but how critical is that game of Sudoku?!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-drivers-vs-bicyclists-again/789209.md?page=3)