car insurance claim

Well, the insurance copmpany is bound in this instance to pay for any property damage the customer is legally liable for. So it has nothing so much to do with customer relations as it does with fulfilling their legal obligation to her. If she truly owes the money, they WANT to pay it. If the rental company is unable to prove that she owes it, then they need to back off and rent some damned cars for legitemate income. They can go through the expense of suing her for the money in which case her insurance company will provide the defense at no cost to her, but that would be stupid because if they win, they will only have done so by proving the debt–which is all the insurance company wants them to do. If they lose a suit, then they’ve wasted their money and have possibly opened themselves up for a personal injury suit initiated by the OP.

Apart from some high-profile distaster aid gifts, which also are a PR boost, insurance companies are not often known for acting out of the goodness of their hearts. We pay and defend because we’ve bound ourselves to pay and defend, and because it’s in our best interest to do so. It just so happens that the insurance company’s interests and the customer’s interests often mesh.

JillGatt, allow me to summarize:

  1. You rear-ended a rental car a while back. Your insurance company paid the rental car company for damages. Now the rental car company is chasing you for loss of use and diminution of value. You want them to stop contacting you and refrain from reporting you to the credit bureaus.

  2. This is not legal advice. I am not licensed to practice law in New Mexico. I do not have the facts of your case. You are not my client. I am not your lawyer. You must not rely on my statements as outlining your legal rights.

  3. I was at the law library at lunch. I found this annotation: Loss of Use of Motor Vehicle Damaged or Destroyed, 18 ALR3d 497 at 9 (1968) (ALR annotations are updated, so even though it was published in 1968, it is relatively current). Apparently, there are no New Mexico cases discussing recovery for loss of use. At any rate, I believe that Inigo Montoya got it right. State law varies a lot on these issues. Only a lawyer who is licensed in your state can advise you on the issue of whether you are in fact liable to the rental car company. You could try http://www.lawguru.com/cgi/bbs/.

There are a few other issues relating to whether the rental car company’s claims are still good. First, what were the terms of the payment your insurance company already made? Second, did the rental car company collect for loss of use or diminution of value from the person who rented the car, or their insurance company? Third, when did the accident happen. There is a 4-year statute of limitations for damage to personal property in New Mexico. http://www.expertlaw.com/library/limitations_by_state/New_Mexico.html#3

  1. Should the rental car company be contacting you? That’s sort of a practical question, and I doubt there is a factual answer to it.

  2. Is it illegal for the rental car company to contact you, since your insurance company will pay? I am aware of no law that prohibits a party from contacting someone against whom they havea claim, even if the claim might be covered by insurance. There may be some state laws out there that do so, but I have not encountered them. There is a rule that prohibits a lawyer from contacting a person “about the subject of the representation with a party the lawyer knows to be represented by another lawyer in the matter.” But that is a rule of professional conduct for lawyers, and as I understand it, you aren’t represented by counsel.

  3. Neither the FDCPA nor the state Collection Agency Registration Act (http://www.conwaygreene.com/nmsu/lpext.dll/Infobase1/99a/1a88d/1bbb7?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0#JD_Ch61Art18A) apply to people collecting their own debts.

  4. You may have some rights under other consumer protection statutes.

  5. The New Mexico Attorney General enforces consumer protection laws.

Hope this helps.

Now it is almost 8 years since the accident. I just got a call from a subrogation company that is informing me that they are putting a lien on my vehicles - the police will come to my house and remove my tags - and suspending my driver’s license until I pay them $3509.28 for “diminishment of value, administrative fees and loss-of-use fees.” The caller was threatening and harassing. I called my insurance company who told me that the last communication they had with the rental car company was when requested proof of the loss of use fees and other charges above what was already paid. They did not hear back from the rental car company.

My insurance company has repeatedly told me that I do not have to talk to them; that this dispute is between my insurance company and the rental car company/subrogation service.

Now I am facing loss of my license and vehicles.

Isn’t there a statute of limitations on this?

Don’t they have to prove that these charges are legitimate before going after me like this?

They are probably lying and betting you will fall for it.

I think this might be either a scam or a company that buys “debts” really cheap and then sees what they can collect from the victim by threatening them with bad credit, loss of license, liens on vehicles, etc. The company identified itself as “HK Craig” in Sarasota, FL. Their phone number is 866-997-2924.

Quit answering their calls. Quit worrying about it. I highly doubt that your local police department is coming to your house and taking anything on the word of Florida debt collection company.

If you want to have fun, pretend that you are a tenant living in your house the next time they call, and tell them that you are disguntled with your landlord and would be willing to do anything to get at her. See what they offer.

Yup. In New Mexico the SOL for property damage is 4 years.

If the property damage claim has not been settled within 4 years of the date of loss, the claimant has to file a lawsuit to protect their interests.

You’re beyond 4 years, if a suit were filed, they would have had to have served you by now or the court would have tossed the case years ago for failure to prosecute.

  1. Confirm the above with your insurance company and/or a New Mexico attorney
  2. Tell the collection agency to stop contacting you
  3. Hi Opal!

Abusive debt collection is illegal, and you can take them to small claims court if you’ve got the documentation to prove their abuse. Here’s one story of a guy who did so, winning $5000 from the debt collectors. Depending how far you want to take it, you might have the basis for such a suit yourself. Or you can just get the debt collectors to leave you alone by threatening such a lawsuit.

ETA: Here’s a FTC q&a page describing what debt collectors can legally do, and what violates the law.

What a mess!!!

No specific advice to offer on the legalities, except that you might want to keep an eye on your credit report to make sure nothing shows up.

Oh - and obviously document EVERYTHING.

Sure sounds like a bunch of scammers to me:
http://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-941-306-0887/2

Hah - I read to the end of that thread and you’ve already visited. Guess I shoulda read the whole way through :).

Ooh, a thread I may actually know something about!

I work in the auto liability claims field, specifically, third party liability claims. My employer is the biggest auto insurer in the US not employing Flo, or using good hands, or involving themselves with state farms. My ultimate boss has often been referred to as an oracle. That out of the way, my opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer, I am not your auto liability claim adjuster, I am not licensed to adjust claims in New Mexico (which I believe requires all P&C adjusters to be licensed), etc etc. I am licensed in the four New England states which require P&C adjuster licenses, so my technical knowledge is roughly limited to the states I handle.

That said, I believe the OP’s original dilemma may be solved by the simple “statute run” defense. I wouldn’t put it past some shady attorney for the rental company to try to argue that since the claim was not adjucated, though presented, within the New Mexico PD statute of 4 years, that technically they are still with standing to present this claim. That’s what you have your insurance carrier to defend.

Case law, with some state-specific exemptions, has generally held that the generic “diminution of value” claim has merits. The problem though is that it’s an extremely difficult claim to prove. The burden of proof, as in all liability claims, is on the claimant. How can they prove, not just demand, that your damaging their rental vehicle 8 years ago somehow caused a financial loss to the company when they went to sell their old fleet vehicles 4 years ago?

I can’t speak for your insurer (unless they’re my employer, in which case my words aren’t official anyway), but generally speaking, when I am presented with a diminution of value claim - and these are nearly always presented by fleet companies (i.e. rental companies, leasing pools that provide vehicles for XYZ Corp.'s employees to use, taxi companies, and the like) - we have a very specific set of guidelines and requirements that the claimant must meet. And even then there’s absolutely no guarantee their claim will net them one cent. Because the burden of proof is set so high, industry-wide, most companies simply drop it and cease pursuit.

All the above advice, to simply refer the rental company to your insurer, is exactly right. They have the obligation to defend you to the extent of your policy limits, and one question I haven’t seen answered here is the simple question: was the rental company’s actual physical damages claim near or over your property damage liability limits? If so, my company as SOP requires the claimant to sign and have notarized a Property Damage release releasing you, us, your firstborn, your lienholder, your spouse, etc from any further claims as a result of this settlement. If they did, and your carrier can dig that up from their claim file, you are golden.

(Regarding the post above whereby the poster stated that SOP for all carriers is to have claimants sign releases regardless, this is typically only true for bodily injury claims. Joe Sixpack, who owns the 1978 Pinto that you rearended causing the rust spots to flake off, doesn’t have to sign a release to get his check for $74.92 in damages, nor does the wording on the property damage check itself suggest that the check is full and final settlement for all claims resulting from this date of loss. If that were so, what would poor Joe do if when his body shop went to reapply the rust, and found more damaged rust below the original rust layer, caused by you? There are often supplements for property damage once the vehicle is in the shop for repairs, while there are never supplements for bodily injury.)

As to their loss of use claim, technically this is a loss of business/rental income claim. The terminology is similar to your generic LOU claim (you busted my car, now I need a rental to get to work), but the requirements to sustain and prove this claim are different. A previous poster essentially alluded to this earlier, but basically the company has to prove to me that

  1. they sustained a loss (duh);
  2. this loss caused a negative effect in servicing their business needs;
  3. there were no other vehicles in the fleet that could be substituted to negate this effect.

Ever seen a fleet utilization report from Big Honkin’ Rental Company, listing all the vehicles within that particular market sector? Probably not because most companies don’t want to take the time to generate it, and even when they do we nearly always find something along the lines of “hey, I see you had a surplus of vehicles over at your Hartford location, which is only 6 miles from your Bumfck branch which you are claiming sustained this loss, and the Hartford branch carried this surplus for, gee whiz, the same days your Bumfck branch vehicle was in the shop.”

These are the proofs your insurance company is seeking from the rental company. I can guarantee you the rental company either doesn’t have any of the paperwork required, or can’t be bothered to jimmy something up because they know some carriers will roll over and pay, as a customer service and/or protect their insured to settle and avoid a lawsuit. My company typically makes the claimaint, you know, prove their claim. And if they take you to court, we will defend you on our nickel (because it’s our money that will be paid out if you lose, within your PD limits).

Hope this helps, and always happy to answer (or attempt to) general questions about auto liability and the auto claims process.

drew

Legal advice is better suited to IMHO than GQ. Moving.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

If they are a third party collection agency (and it sounds like they are), that certainly applies but if the are the original creditor or (in some states) if they actually purchased the debt then FDCPA generally doesn’t apply.

Sorry to hear this is still going on! I’m five years further out from my former auto claims career so don’t want to even try to give advice at this point.

We have quite a few answers and they are good but ignore a few key parts.
One that the contract you signed with the rental car outlines what you are liable for. And the insurance policy you purchase states what it covers and defends against.

I am going to leave the diminished value off the board right now and just stick with loss of rental income.
This is something That you will owe and that your insurance usually will not cover.

When you lease the car you either buy their insurance, of use your own that will extend to the rental.

In my state with my company we extend coverage to the rental just as we would for an owned cars. So we pay the ACV of the car or the reasonable repairs costs at the time of loss less your deductible.

One thing we do not pay for is the contractal responsibility you sign for regarding loss of rental. So the time a rental is off the floor is your responsibility and insurance will not pay. Referring the collectors to your insurance company will not help and they will not defend you for something they do not cover.

I hope this did appear with no notice and the rental company should have made attempts to collect the “owed” monies from you before this.
Dispute the debt ask for the contract documents. Get a lawyer.

You should probably re-read the OP.

I would be up your insurance company’s ass over this. You pay them good money to protect yourself from liability should you get into an accident. That happened, but here we are 4 years later and you are still getting threatening phone calls. It’s their job to make sure that everything is settled up. When they didn’t get a call back 4 years ago regarding the itemizing of damage, they shouldn’t have let it drop. They should have pressed for a release.

The insurance company needs to hire a law firm to chase down this debt, throw some muscle around, and get a released signed by the rental company, or else Shit Will Hit the Fan.

Because of the rental company’s negligence in letting this alleged debt get to a collection agency, you have suffered innumerable grief worrying if you are going to lose your cars.

Failing that, you can sue your own insurance company for bad faith. See a lawyer about that, or at least mention it to them in the phone call if they give you the run around.

Wow what you’re going through really does sound shady. I’d ask your insurance company for a copy of the release they should have received from the rental car company in exchange for payment of the property damages. If you can get it, send a copy to the debt collection company and threaten to sue them if they continue.

If your insurance company didn’t get a release then you need to speak with a supervisor and impress upon them the fact that their mistake is leaving you open to legal action. Try to get a commitment in writing from them to address these claims. If you do not feel they are addressing your concerns write a letter to the department of insurance saying that your carrier failed to get the proper release and their actions have now exposed you to litigation. cc the adjuster. A letter to the insurance department usually gets things like this moving, quickly.

On a side note I was once a target of these folks. They were trying to tell me that since someone used an old address and phone number of mine to take out a credit card, that I had to pay it. Never mind they couldn’t produce the signed application, give me my SSN or DOB (in fact they asked me for mine, which I didn’t give) . Oh and the debt was 10 years old. Well past the statute to recover. In the end I told them that I knew they were in violation of the laws on debt collection and I would be recording all future calls and discussions. Since I had the needed equipment from my job, it was not an empty threat. The next time they called I informed them that as per my prior statements I was recording the call. They sputtered complained and then hung up. They didn’t call back.