Car insurance - I didn't do it!

[Joey_P]

@slash2k

I’m going to say, “I’m slash2k and I have a problem. Can you help me?” Most people, most of the time, are pretty willing to help. They don’t NEED to be tricked; they’re perfectly happy to give you what you need. That’s how and why social engineering works.

In my state, for example, the state Division of Vehicles has an official form for requesting information from motor vehicle records. You give them a license plate number and $10; they give you vehicle registration information. There’s no trickery, no lying, no calling in a favor. It’s a standard process. (Whether the information you receive still includes policy # I’m not sure, as it has been a number of years since I’ve needed to do that.)

First off, here’s what you said
"Social-engineering a DMV clerk, an insurance agent, or a spouse’s cousin’s best friend who works in an attorney’s office is another possibility. So is just calling up various insurance companies; phoning just two (State Farm and Geico) yields a better than 1-in-4 chance of getting the right company.
Social engineering a DMV clerk, by definition, is lying to obtain information from them. If there’s a perfectly legit process to to say ‘here’s a license plate, I’d like their insurance information’, that’s not social engineering. But you’re the one that said ‘social engineering’ not everyone else, so stop attacking us. You could have just said what you said right there instead of going around in circles for 30 posts.

I know for an absolute fact that my former insurance agent’s office would look up information for their insureds; I said so earlier in the thread. They were in the business and had access to the database; they’d tell you, “that vehicle is insured with XYZ Company–do you want to contact them yourself or handle it through us?” They regarded it as a service for policyholders, especially policyholders who have liability-only coverage and hence no chance of collecting from their own company. That may well be an unusual practice, but it’s hardly unknown.

Kinda moving the goal posts there aren’t you. You said something about calling in a favor with a spouse’s neighbor’s whatever to which I recall replying that they can probably do that but it’s leave an entry in an audit trail. Looking back, yes, you did say that someone could contact their own insurance company and get the information. Wonderful. What’s the problem. Done and done. Why are we still arguing. Like I said above, you could have just said that waaaay up at the beginning. You literally could have said, the first time you replied to me “I used to work at an insurance company, where I worked, you wouldn’t even need to open a case, we would have just given you their info and you could have used that to contact their insurance company”. Why argue in circles for all this time when your answer was essentially agreeing with everyone else, just let them contact their own company.

I actually returned to this thread because I had the opportunity to discuss the matter with a retired insurance guy this weekend. (He started as a claims adjuster, and then moved into the litigation side, mostly defending his company and their insureds from claims real and otherwise.) He says the company absolutely wants to know. They’ve seen plenty of bogus claims through the years, they have experience and protocols for dealing with 'em, and trying to keep them out of it does them no favors. If they end up being dragged into it later, getting in late makes it harder for them to investigate and determine what really happened, and if it does end up in court, “I thought it was bogus but turned it over to the experts at my insurers” plays much better than “I tried to keep it secret from the experts.” [Juries sometimes conclude that “I’m going to keep them out of this as long as possible (hoping that it blows over)” means “I’m guilty, I know I’m guilty, but I’m going to cover it up and hope it blows over” (because sometimes that really is what it means) and reach a corresponding verdict.]

He also says that specific policy language varies from company to company and state to state, but it is pretty typical to require that any POTENTIAL claims be reported. If you know of somebody who claims your vehicle damaged theirs, the company may regard it as your contractual obligation to report it to them regardless of whether you think the claimed incident ever happened, and failure to do so once you are on notice of the potential claim may be grounds to drop you at your next policy renewal. Check the language of your policy, or discuss it with your agent.

No, it’s not the end of it. Michigan is the only state that has mandatory no-fault rules covering property damage; in all of the others, the owner of the other vehicle (and/or his insurer) has the right to pursue you, through either your insurance company or the small claims process. If they don’t have full coverage on their vehicle, or they have a very high deductible, pursuing you may be the only way they recover.

Even if they do file the claim with their own insurer, if they name you in the claim then their insurer is going to want to know whether you/your insurance can be compelled to pay. If they pursue you, sooner or later your insurance company is going to hear about it, and they’d much rather hear about it from you.

From what my insurance friend says, a lot of the time it’s NOT a scam, in the sense of somebody deliberately lying or attempting to put one over on the company or the courts. It’s somebody who has convinced himself, sometimes in the very face of reason, that you are the guilty party, that you are the one who should pay. Insurance companies have plenty of experience dealing with these sorts of claimants too.

It’s not about making it easier on the other guy; it’s about making it easier on you. Jake at State Farm knows a heck of lot more about defending you from bogus claims than you do.

According to the insurance guy I mention above, no, as a claims adjuster and litigation specialist, it absolutely does not mean that to him or to his company. His advice to me, if I ever find myself in that situation, was to turn everything over to my insurer, including telling the would-be claimant to talk to my insurer, not to me.

They’re going to be antagonized at your insurance company, which is usually better than having them antagonized at you.

It’s also for protecting you from bogus claims. You are paying them, in part, to defend you against unreasonable claims, so let them do their job.

As I recall, pkbites, you are ex-law enforcement. If somebody is being harassed, would you suggest that they try to handle it entirely by themselves, or would you recommend they involve the appropriate authorities (which might be LEOs, HR for workplace issues, the school administration for K-12, etc.)? From my experience, most LEOs would rather know about potential issues sooner rather than later; in my workplace, HR definitely likes to know early on. In the OP’s case, their own insurer is the appropriate authority to handle the matter.

(I realize you have no particular reason to trust me about what “my insurance friend” has to say, so I strongly suggest you discuss the issue with your insurance agent, or any claims adjusters or insurance lawyers of your acquaintance.)

I feel like this all totally moot since the OPs car wasn’t involved in an accident. Like you telling us we should go and talk to a lawyer about this hypothetical case on the internet.

[slash2k]

@Joey_P

Social engineering a DMV clerk, by definition, is lying to obtain information from them. If there’s a perfectly legit process to to say ‘here’s a license plate, I’d like their insurance information’, that’s not social engineering. But you’re the one that said ‘social engineering’ not everyone else, so stop attacking us. You could have just said what you said right there instead of going around in circles for 30 posts.

Well, I guess we’re using different definitions of social engineering then. I’m using the definition of convincing somebody to do something to your benefit. The method of convincing may involve a lie, but it doesn’t have to; if you tell them the absolute truth but appeal to their sympathy or their desire to be helpful, is that “social engineering”? I am including that in my definition; what term would you use?

I gave the example of my state’s process specifically to refute your statement asking “What are you going to say to a DMV clerk or Jake from State Farm to get them to give you any information about a license plate that you have that isn’t going to result in them telling you to start with your own insurance company (or the police).” Even if your state’s process doesn’t normally include passing out insurance information, DMV records clerks are used to passing information. What term would you use for asking them for information that maybe they don’t normally pass out, or don’t normally pass out for free?

@Joey_P

Kinda moving the goal posts there aren’t you. You said something about calling in a favor with a spouse’s neighbor’s whatever to which I recall replying that they can probably do that but it’s leave an entry in an audit trail. Looking back, yes, you did say that someone could contact their own insurance company and get the information. Wonderful. What’s the problem. Done and done. Why are we still arguing.

I’m not sure why you are continuing to argue that it is so difficult to get this information.

@Joey_P

I feel like this all totally moot since the OPs car wasn’t involved in an accident. Like you telling us we should go and talk to a lawyer about this hypothetical case on the internet.

You are giving specific advice on how to handle a bogus or mistaken claim. I am arguing that your advice is not very good and may even be injurious to OP’s legal and financial position. (The information I have been given, for example, is that failing to report a noticed claim, even one you have reason to believe is entirely fictional, can lead to your own coverage being non-renewed, which may make it harder and/or more expensive to get coverage from another carrier.)

Your state’s laws and your company’s policies may not be the same as what I am familiar with; therefore, I suggested you ask your agent or attorney how you should handle any similar situation that happens to you, before you make a really poor decision.

[pkbites]

@slash2k

As I recall, pkbites, you are ex-law enforcement.

No, I am a current LEO. I retired and started a 2nd career.

Which means, as I’ve posted before, I’ve dealt with oodles of “yes you did/no I didn’t” damage claims. When it can’t be determined who caused what both parties info is exchanged and the 2 insurance companies can duke it out . It’s not one sided like the OP’s initial situation.

Nobody but nobody who thinks they didn’t cause damage just hands over their info and says “make a claim” and walks away with nothing.

And anybody that made the mistake of doing that shouldn’t go on a message board looking for reassurance that they did the right thing and then get pissed when told they didn’t. They should immediately call their insurance company and report what happened and what their side of it is.

[slash2k]

@pkbites

No, I am a current LEO. I retired and started a 2nd career.

My apologies, then; I misremembered.

@pkbites

Which means, as I’ve posted before, I’ve dealt with oodles of “yes you did/no I didn’t” damage claims. When it can’t be determined who caused what both parties info is exchanged and the 2 insurance companies can duke it out . It’s not one sided like the OP’s initial situation.

While it certainly would not hurt anything to get the other guy’s insurance, it doesn’t sound like OP has any damage for which he needs or expects to file a claim. Therefore, he has no real need for the other guy’s insurance. He can pass it along to his own insurer, but he’s not asking or expecting them to contact the neighbor’s insurance, and if the neighbor’s insurance contacts them because a claim is actually being filed through them, his insurer will have the information anyway.

Now if the OP thinks he himself has a claim, he needs that information. In the absence of a claim himself, it’s not really necessary. (As an aside, how many of those “yes you did/no I didn’t” claims you handled actually involved one of the parties stating he had no damage, versus two parties arguing over which one did what to whom?)

@pkbites

Nobody but nobody who thinks they didn’t cause damage just hands over their info and says “make a claim” and walks away with nothing.

And anybody that made the mistake of doing that shouldn’t go on a message board looking for reassurance that they did the right thing and then get pissed when told they didn’t. They should immediately call their insurance company and report what happened and what their side of it is.

When I talked to my friend the insurance claims guy, the “make a claim” and walk away approach did not strike him as even all that unusual, much less a poor decision or a mistake (and he’s seen far more insurance claims than you and I put together). The OP didn’t need his insurer to duke it out with another company; he need them to defend against a bogus claim.

Now my friend did say that the OP should report what happened to his own insurer ASAP; if they are not notified about a potential claim within a “reasonable” time (defined by state law and/or the policy terms), he may forfeit whatever coverage he might otherwise have had, including their defense services. For my friend’s company, the notification time limit was generally one year after the insured had notice of the possibility of a claim: they’d simply wash their hands of anything filed after that, absent extreme extenuating circumstances, and leave their insured to handle it on his or her own. Less formally, if they were not notified within a couple of weeks or so, the company would be asking some pointed questions, because “late” claims are viewed as an indicator that their insured might be trying to pull a fast one on them.

[pkbites]

@slash2k

When I talked to my friend the insurance claims guy, the “make a claim” and walk away approach did not strike him as even all that unusual, (

That’s because a lot of people are dumb or easily intimidated. If someone demands my insurance for damage I did not cause I am not giving it to them, and, at least in this state I am not obligated to. And, contrary to what you posted much earlier, it will not have negative consequences for me to not provide that information in a situation similar to the OP.

Funny how your “fri:dubious:nd” seems to agree with everything you’ve been saying here.

Did you ask him about refusing to give information for damage one did not cause? I’m willing to bet your “friend” will insist people are required to do so. :rolleyes: