Don’t sweat the pic, you have CI also know as Bosch K Jetronic. Now that we have that sorted out, we can go to work.
sounds good so far. IIRC when looking at the cap from the right side (passenger side assuming a left hand drive car) of the engine compartment #4 spark plug should come out of the hole in the cap closest to you, then #3, then #1, and closest to the driver’s side is #2
Good, make sure that nothing between the fuel distributor and the engine is loose, an air leak between the fuel dist, and the engine will for sure give you a no start. While I don’t think this is your problem, it is a good thing to keep in mind.
Houston, we have a problem! With the key on, there should be voltage (probably near battery voltage on those two wires at the coil. If there is no voltage there, there will be no spark. I think we may have found your problem. This is the good news, the bad news is that I do not have a wiring diagram for your car here at the house, so I can’t tell you where to look for the problem. I can tell you this, terminal 15 of the coil connects back to the ignition key (possibly through a relay) and is powered up when the key is in position II or III (run or start) As an experiment try running a wire from the battery to the terminal marked 15 on the coil and see if the car either starts or a spark is generated. If the answer is yes, then you do not need a coil.
While I am concerned about these wires, let’s leave them along for a moment.
Don’t order one yet, I don’t think this is your problem
Some more items:
Try removing the wire from terminal 15 of the coil and seeing if there is voltage present when the key is in the on position. I doubt there will be any but go ahead and check just to be sure.
IIRC there is /are a one or two gang connectors under the support for the strut tower where the coil is located. pull them apart and make sure that they are not coroded (I am pretty sure that the terminal 15 wire to the coil goes through one of these connectors)
Pull each fuse out of the main fuse box, and look at both the side of the fuse to see if it is blown and look at the terminals in the fuse box. Over time these terminals can overheat and melt away from the fuse, causing no connection.
Look under the car behind the driver’s seat area and locate the fuel pump. You should be able to reatch it without jacking the car up. Grab the pump and have someone try and start the car. The pump for sure must run when the key in the crank position. Does the pump run when the key is in crank? I don’t have a wiring diagram for your car, but it is possible that the pump and coil are supplied power from the same source. Knowing if the pump runs will be a help.
Lastly is there any other electrical items that are not working on the car? I’m looking for a common problem.
ok, confession time. The last time I tested the low voltage connection points on the coil, I just let black casually touch the cylinder head. Apparently I din’t get a good connection. I repeated today both using minus on the the battery and more carefully touching the cylinder head. Now I got voltage, good voltage, everywhere. I realized my mistake when I ran a wire from the battery to plus on the coil (15) and at first didn’t get any reading then either. Now I got reading with both the wire I ran, and the original wires (on both LV connections points).
I also have an option to measure resistance on my voltmeter (multimeter?), one where it says x10, another says x1k (x 1000 I guess). I almost found out how much resistance I should normally have between the two LV points (0.5-1.0 or 0.35-0.65) and between any of the LV points and the HV point (6000-9000 or 4000-6000). Here I was unable to get any reading at all, but I’m not sure if I did it right. When I tested between the HV points and a LV point, I tried both without the HV wire (touching the connection point on the coil directly, kind of difficult) and with the HV wire in the coil (touching the other end of this wire).
::: Bangs head against desk::: :smack:
OK, so we do have voltage at the coil with the key on right?
Set your meter to the lowest resistance scale disconnect the low voltage wires from the coil and measure the resistance. Since yours is an analoge meter, don’t forget to zero the meter. Then set the meter to the 1K scale and remove the High tension lead. Stick one probe into the hole where the HT lead was (make sure you make contact with the electrical part) and the touch the other to one (either one) of the low voltage terminals What are these two readings?
Don’t sweat running a wire from the battery to terminal 15, it seems that you have power there.
Now what I would like you to do is reconnect the wires to the coil, and set the coil wire up to check for spark again (like you did before). With the key in position II (ON or run) take a wire and and hold one end to ground (engine cylinder head) and momentarly touch the other end to the low tension terminal marked 1 on the coil. IMPORTANT! Make sure you touch terminal 1 NOT therminal 15 or bad things may happen to your car
Is a spark generated when you momentarly ground terminal 1 of the coil?
Also do the check to see if the fuel pump runs when the car is in crank, like I described above.
Let me know
Rick
:: Alien sends virtual band aid in Ricks direction ::
Yup. Got voltage on coil when key is ON (step II of III)
Done. All the fuses (and containers) checks out all right, except #26 which as melted down. #26 safeguards the heating units in the seats, which aren’t working.
The fuel pump is located almost right between the two front seats. I first got under the car, than had the key turned to position II of III. With my fingers on the pump I couldn’t feel anything when the key was turned to II, but there is this clicking sound (that might as well come from the heating units for the car seats right above).
For crank, see below.
Here we go. I have never used the ohm option before and I’ve lost the instructions, so I’ll try to add every detail of what I did. On the meter, in addition to the x10 and x1k options, there’s small wheel on the left side. First, I turned the voltmeter OFF, turned the wheel all the way down (counter-clockwise), then I turned the meter to x1k as you said. I then turned the wheel all the up (clockwise) (note: I also tried to get readings before turning the wheel up, but didn’t get any on any of places I later got readings)
This is the readings I got (MM=multimeter):
MM plus on LV coil plus, MM minus on battery minus = 80-120 ohm
MM plus on LV coil minus, MM minus on battery minus = 80-120 ohm
MM plus on HV coil, MM minus on battery minus = 80-120 ohm
MM plus on LV coil plus, MM minus on LV coil minus = no needle reaction
MM plus on LV coil plus, MM minus on HV coil = no needle reaction
MM plus on HV coil, MM minus on LV coil minus = no needle reaction
I also did it the other way around. Here, FN means Full Negative, menaing that the needle got floored in the opposite direction than it should go:
MM plus on battery minus, MM minus on LV coil plus = FN
MM plus on battery minus, MM minus on LV coil minus = FN
MM plus on battery minus, MM minus on HV coil = FN
MM plus on LV coil minus, MM minus on LV coil plus = no needle reaction
MM plus on HV coil, MM minus on LV coil plus = no needle reaction
MM plus on LV coil minus, MM minus on HV coil = no needle reaction
I did the following:
Attached a wire to battery minus, this is my FreeWire
2a) Attached one end of HV-coil-to-distrubutor-wire in the coil, put the other end on the cylinder head (metal in center of wire right above cylinder head, no direct contact)
2b) Used FreeWire to touch LV minus on coil. Some spark on LV minus coil, no spark on HV wire on cylinder head
3a) Attached one end of distrubutor-to-plug-wire in the coil, put the other end on the cylinder block with a plug in it, made sure metal on plug touched the cylinder head
3b) Used FreeWire to touch LV minus on coil. Some spark on LV minus coil, A VERY SMALL spark on tip of plug (barely noticeable, ie. much smaller than the spark on LV minus on coil caused by FreeWire)
Repeated #3a-b with a different wire and a different plug. Same result.
However, when I did this I also heard a buzzing sound coming from under the car (under engine/windshield?). The sound lasted for about 1 second and resembled an electronic lift. Can this be the fuel pump?
A couple of things:
My standard warning lights in the rear aren’t working. The warning for “lights not working” on my dash is also on, probably due to this. [more confessions] It has been this way for a while
The fuel level indicator is occasionally dropping out
The heating units in the front seats aren’t working, likely due to the fuse, as mentioned above
OK I didn’t make myself clear enough in my last post.
here are the tests I want you to do, but first lets have a class in multimeter useage.
To zero your multimeter, turn to the ohms scale and touch the 2 leads together (this is a connection has zero resistance) now with the 2 leads touching turn the wheel until the needle reads zero ohms.
Now that you have the meter zeroed, let take some measurements.
Look at the top of the coil, the two low voltage terminals are labeled one has a 1 next to it, and the other a 15 See them? Good. now disconnect the wires from both terminal 1 and 15, and remove the coil wire.
Take a resistance measurement with the black lead from your meter to terminal 1 and the red on terminal 15. What is that reading?
Next move the black lead back to inside where the high tension lead goes, and take another measurement. What is that measurement?
Please do the test where you grab the pump and have some else (or reach and do it yourself, it can be done I’ve done it) crank the car and tell me if the pump runs, I am not talking about a click, a steady purr with viabration when the car is in crank.
R
This reading is 0 or 0.1 (pretty much identical to nullified)
This reading is 8
When I turn the key from II to III, I can detect a small vibration with my hand that might or might not come from the car. I also believe I hear a very low humming mosquitoish sound from the the pump area. The starter is running so it’s a bit hard to hear.
There’s absolutely nothing to hear or to feel when the key is turned from I to II.
Correction: that should read: When I turn the key from II to III, I can detect a small vibration with my hand that might or might not come from the pump.
Is this small viabration that you feel in your hand sound like the same one you heard from under the car when you applied a ground to terminal 1 of the coil?
Also when you try and start the car does the tach needle jump at all or does it just lay dead at zero?
You mean if the sound I heard when I had my hand on the pump was the same sound I heard when I applied a ground to terminal 1 of the coil? No, it wasn’t, In the latter it was a clearly noticeable buzz (like a small electrical lift/machine moving stuff around) sound. In the former it was a very weak humming sound I coould only hear because I had my head deep under the car, and I can’t be 100% it had anything to do with the pump.
If you really suspect the fuel pump, I can disconnect the fuel hose before it reaches the injection system, run the engine and see if any gas gets pumped out. I can do that tomorrow afternoon.
Yes it jumps. That’s 100% certain.
I was a bit disappointed when I got the correct ohm readings earlier from the coil, as they seem to me to be were they should be - or at least it did to my untrained eye. I have gone over the car again today (wires and everything) and haven’t found anything else to put my finger on, and since I didn’t get any spark (except a tiny little one) by grounding #1 on the coil, I was starting to feel sure it was the coil after all.
No I don’t want you disconnecting fuel hoses, fires can start that way.
The fact that you got a spark, any spark out of the coil tells me that it is not a 100% dead player. In my experience coils are digital, either they work or they don’t.
Please redo the have someone crank the car, only this time I want you to have your hand on the fuel line where it enters the engine compartment and feel for a vibration from the pump, then try grounding terminal 1 of the coil again, and feel that vibration. Are they the same?
Done. Yes, I did feel a very noticeable virbration in the fuel hoses in the engine room - on both tests. I felt it both in the hose coming into the engine room to this thing that has s similar shape as the coil, only much bigger and is silver metal grey, and in the hose coming out of this thing on the other side, leading to the injector (fuel distributor).
But: I only felt on release. That is, on both tests, the vibration came as I removed the freewire from #1 on the coil or as the key was released back to position II. There was no vibration when the key was turned to from I to II.
Btw, there is no diesel on the car, it’s gas.
Just to clarify:
There was no vibration as I touched #1 on the coil, or turned the key from II to III, only when I removed the wire from #1 or turned the key back to II. Neither was there any vibration when the key was turned to from I to II.
The big round silver thing is the fuel filter.
OK it is starting to sound like the problem is not with the coil, but rather the pickup inside the distributor.
You mentioned that the connector was in poor condition. Can you be more specific?
The three wires go to a hall switch inside the distributor. One wire should have 12V, one a ground, and the third is a signal wire. The signal is 5 volts or 0 volts.
Check to see if you have a ground at one of the wires, and battery voltage at another. Make sure the connection is clean, and tight.
You didn’t specify, so here is what I did. Unplugged the wire, the connector is labelled “+”, “-” and “0”. Turned the key to posistion II. The meter didn’t pick up any voltage on “+” and “0”. Further, I ran a wire from the battery, got reading when I touched the cylinder head, no reading when touch the ground connection. Did I do it correct?
This connector is hanging in the air, dangling right beneath the distributor (the plastic clip that should have kept the connector hooked to the distributor is broken). Seems a bit wet (oily) both inside the connector (at the three connection points) and along the wires (isulated) as they go inside the distributor and disappears underneath the spinning base of the rotor. None of the wires are loose at the connection points, but the isulation for the wires might have seen better days.
Assuming that you had the meter set to DC voltage yes you did it correctly.
No voltage at the distributor would be a bad thing. You need to have voltage at one of those terminals.
I won’t have access to a wiring diagram until next Monday. That leaves us with the following options:
[ol]
[li]You can get a wiring diagram yourself and go for it.[/li][li]You can wait until next week when I can look and find a wiring diagram for your car[/li][li]You can have the car towed to a pro and have it looked at.[/li][/ol]
While #1 or #2 might seem like the cheapest course, if you don’t have good electrical fault tracing skills, you could very easily overlook the real problem.
A smart machanic knows when to hold them, and knows when to fold them. You might want to consider taking the car to a shop at this point.
If you want to keep trying yourself, I will continue to answer your questions.
Let me know your decision.
Well, didn’t do that. Which means that now I have voltage on both, plus ground on the third. So no problem there. 12+ and ground gives the same reading, the third a little less than half.
Meaning the problem should be in the distributor, right?
The repair shop I’m using can’t take the car until the last week of this month. I haven’t called any of the others, but since I don’t know them and they are all on the other side of town I would like to avoid that.
Hi Rick, some more information: I disassembled the distributor again. The wires on the the distributor’s side of the connector have an unisulated area as they come out of the connector and go further inside the distributor. I reconnected everything and looked for voltage on this wires (12 and 5), and got the same readings as before. So that should mean that the power that goes into the distributor, also comes out on ground wire. How can I find out if the pickup coil is broken?
I got it.