# Car repair question **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 20, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747 "2014-02-20T00:32:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/61 "2014-02-21T02:01:29Z")
We get more than 5 minutes here in small claims court , my brother has been a few times. A lot of people don’t show up at all so you win by default. But like I said they will pay me way before that. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/62 "2014-02-21T02:15:15Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > We get more than 5 minutes here in small claims court , my brother has been a few times. > > A lot of people don’t show up at all so you win by default. But like I said they will pay me way before that. Well, I didn’t figure you’d listen to advice, but I was worth a shot. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/63 "2014-02-21T02:31:35Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > A hand wrench is more likely to break a bolt than a power tool - which may have been set at the incorrect torque value? A perfectly healthy bolt isn’t likely to be broken by either a hand wrench or a power tool. If you want to talk about what’s most likely, it’s that the stud was weakened through a manufacturing defect or corrosion and age. Most likely, you are trying to punish someone who didn’t do anything wrong. Based on your other responses in this thread I fully expect you to completely ignore this. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/64 "2014-02-21T02:34:09Z")
OP. Please, please, please come back and update us with how this all turns out. Pretty please? ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/65 "2014-02-21T03:01:36Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I do work for free if I screw something up. done it many times. You’ve screwed things up many times? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/66 "2014-02-21T03:38:10Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > A perfectly healthy bolt isn’t likely to be broken by either a hand wrench or a power tool. If you want to talk about what’s most likely, it’s that the stud was weakened through a manufacturing defect or corrosion and age. > > Most likely, you are trying to punish someone who didn’t do anything wrong. > > Based on your other responses in this thread I fully expect you to completely ignore this. Some of the newer impact wrenches will snap a wheel stud like butter if you don’t have them turned down. They can build up about 200# torque in under 1 second after bottoming out. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/67 "2014-02-21T04:04:14Z")
Not sure why the LA county court system should be held up as a great example. Although I guess Robert Blake and OJ think it is a great system. (of course OJ doesn’t like the Nevada system too much these days) Phil Spector liked it for a while. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/68 "2014-02-21T05:59:44Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > Nah, dog’s got no thumbs. He’d fumble the nuts. I have no advice to offer, but I did want to tell everyone that I’m displaying admirable restraint after seeing “dogs” and “nuts” in the same sentence and choosing to say nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/69 "2014-02-21T13:26:38Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > $364 total cost including $250 of labor so I am disputing this. > > Forgot the worst part - they thought it was OK for me to drive around with 1 lug nut missing. ( car has 4) They asked me if they should fix the problem. > > They also replaced the wheel bearing for some reason. “for some reason.” Are you communicating with these guys at all? If you try to dispute the charge with Visa, the first thing they’re going to ask you is whether you’ve actually tried to work it out with the vendor. Did you just pay the bill without even asking why they replaced the wheel bearing? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/70 "2014-02-21T14:43:39Z")
**Bijou** , you’re being… [Pitted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17126801#post17126801). ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/71 "2014-02-21T16:34:42Z")
Apparently on this design it’s necessary to remove the hub from the knuckle and bearing assembly in order to replace a lug stud. This type of bearing comes apart during disassembly and doesn’t go back together properly, the bearing must be replaced. The price mentioned suggests that the bearing and stud were replaced and the hub was re-used; the parts pricing sounds about right but the labor strikes me as pretty high. > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Forgot the worst part - they thought it was OK for me to drive around with 1 lug nut missing…why on earth did they think it was OK to drive with the wheel on 3 bolts rather than 4? That’s really bad to me, please explain that. In the real world, I’ve seen a number of cars that have been driven with 3 (out of 4) lug nuts in place, for months and sometimes years, and not had a problem. It’s not something I’d lose sleep over for the short term, but it’s not something I’d officially say was okay. I certainly wouldn’t want to have to justify it to a court. > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I only want labor costs refunded, not the parts. Given that the repair charge is in dispute, this is a rather reasonable request. > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > There was no estimate to me for any work other than “fix a broken bolt” which I figured was a $25 job. Nothing in writing or told to me. So that’s another thing they screwed up on , nobody told me it was going to cost $300+. To me this is a MAJOR failing on their part. Aside from a few long-term-super-good-relationship customers where I know it’s okay, I wouldn’t DREAM of surprising a customer with a bill for something where the price wasn’t clearly understood and agreed to before the work was done. It flabbergasts me that any shop would do this, and I would expect that the customer is not legally obligated to pay for charges he didn’t approve. I still think it’s questionable that the shop should be liable for the lug stud repair, but in my mind they shot themselves in the foot by proceeding without proper approval. I don’t think the customer can be held liable for the repair charge. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/72 "2014-02-21T16:50:30Z")
In California if you are not given an estimate, legally you don’t have to pay. If an increase in the estimate is requested by the shop they had better make a note of who they spoke to and when or the customer won’t have a legal obligation to pay the increased amount. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/73 "2014-02-21T16:54:30Z")
He may be ‘entitled’ to something, but he’s going about it in such a colossally dickish way when his first thought is to go to court or dispute the charge with the credit card company rather than talking to the shop first. He makes it very hard to have any sympathy for him. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/74 "2014-02-21T17:13:29Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > In the real world, I’ve seen a number of cars that have been driven with 3 (out of 4) lug nuts in place, for months and sometimes years, and not had a problem. A buddy of mine was driving across Canadia and had a tire problem. He stopped at a garage, bought a tire, and had it mounted. An hour or so later, that wheel came flying off. He climbed down a hill and retrieved his wheel. He jacked up the car and put the wheel on with three bolts, one taken from each of the other three wheels. He drove like that for hours until he reached the next town. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/75 "2014-02-21T17:25:41Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Apparently on this design it’s necessary to remove the hub from the knuckle and bearing assembly in order to replace a lug stud. This type of bearing comes apart during disassembly and doesn’t go back together properly, the bearing must be replaced. The price mentioned suggests that the bearing and stud were replaced and the hub was re-used; the parts pricing sounds about right but the labor strikes me as pretty high. So in your expert opinion, once you’ve been authorized to fix the broken bolt which resulted in having to take apart the hub and then being in a position where you cannot re-assemble it again (as above), what do you tell the customer? Can you tell him that he is free to drive it away knowing that what you’ve done is not strictly speaking safe? Aren’t you still going to be liable for the repair cost if he breaks down on the way home or another garage? Aren’t you still going to be liable for the repair when the other garage claims what you’ve done resulted in additional damage and cost of repair? Aren’t there situations where the car comes into the garage for an oil change and you discover when you remove the oil plug the thread has been stripped by previous service by someone else and now not only can you not fit the plug back into the pan, you have to replace the entire pan because it’s aluminum and can’t be re-tapped? In other words, isn’t the OP in a situation where the repair was absolutely necessary and unavoidable but he is trying to take advantage on a technicality? ---
**Author:** ![HipGnosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/76d3ee/32.png) [@HipGnosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HipGnosis)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/76 "2014-02-21T17:39:35Z")
I don’t know the legal term, but this is a comedy of errors. The shop should have given him an estimate for the lug replacement. The OP should have demanded a price before authorizing the repair. The shop should have talked to the OP when it turned out to be a complex lug replacement. The OP probably should have had is car towed to a reputable repair shop - tire shops are not repair shops. An estimate is just that - a shop can’t promise the final cost because there can be surprises. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/77 "2014-02-21T17:55:10Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Apparently on this design it’s necessary to remove the hub from the knuckle and bearing assembly in order to replace a lug stud. This type of bearing comes apart during disassembly and doesn’t go back together properly, the bearing must be replaced. The price mentioned suggests that the bearing and stud were replaced and the hub was re-used; the parts pricing sounds about right but the labor strikes me as pretty high. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > So in your expert opinion, once you’ve been authorized to fix the broken bolt which resulted in having to take apart the hub and then being in a position where you cannot re-assemble it again (as above), what do you tell the customer? I’m not sure I understand your question. (For one thing, to me “authorized” means having gotten approval to charge a specified amount of money for the repair, which is not the case in the OP’s situation.) When this type of job is being considered, the shop knows that the bearing, which can’t be reassembled, will need to be replaced and includes a new one in the price. So I tell the customer – before proceeding – “It will cost $X, which includes a new bearing.” The customer then approves and I fix it, or he doesn’t and I don’t. > [@](#): > > Can you tell him that he is free to drive it away knowing that what you’ve done is not strictly speaking safe? > > Aren’t you still going to be liable for the repair cost if he breaks down on the way home or another garage? > > Aren’t you still going to be liable for the repair when the other garage claims what you’ve done resulted in additional damage and cost of repair? What are you talking about here? > [@](#): > > In other words, isn’t the OP in a situation where the repair was absolutely necessary and unavoidable but he is trying to take advantage on a technicality? There’s some question about whether the lug stud breakage was unavoidable, as we don’t know how carefully the shop did its work. But if we assume it was so, the real problem here is that the shop did not get approval to run up a $364 tab. I have sympathy for the shop with respect to the OP apparently automatically assuming that they caused the problem; there’s a good chance they were not at fault. I do not have sympathy for them with respect to proceeding with the repair and presenting a bill for work that was not authorized. They dug their own grave on that aspect. > [@Bijou Drains](#): > > $364 just on a broken bolt demands an explanation, at a minimum - don’t know how it works in the US but I’d expect a phone call from the mechanic if that had happened, explaining the mishap and why it’s costing what it is. Not job done and bill served up. It could well be reasonable… And that strikes me as a reasonable expectation. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/78 "2014-02-21T18:20:55Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > I’m not sure I understand your question. (For one thing, to me “authorized” means having gotten approval to charge a specified amount of money for the repair, which is not the case in the OP’s situation.) When this type of job is being considered, the shop knows that the bearing, which can’t be reassembled, will need to be replaced and includes a new one in the price. So I tell the customer – before proceeding – “It will cost $X, which includes a new bearing.” The customer then approves and I fix it, or he doesn’t and I don’t. > There’s some question about whether the lug stud breakage was unavoidable, as we don’t know how carefully the shop did its work. But if we assume it was so, the real problem here is that the shop did not get approval to run up a $364 tab. I have sympathy for the shop with respect to the OP apparently automatically assuming that they caused the problem; there’s a good chance they were not at fault. I do not have sympathy for them with respect to proceeding with the repair and presenting a bill for work that was not authorized. They dug their own grave on that aspect. It seems (like someone else noted), there is blame to place on both parties here. Shop should have given the heads up that it was going to be more than just a broken bolt repair. On the other hand, repairing the bolt would necessitate the replacement of the bearings and the customer would be looking at that repair no matter what shop he turned to in order to affect the bolt repair. Sooner or later, he’d have to deal with the problem and the cost. If so, it seems disingenuous of the OP to claim he was “screwed” for the repair and is just trying to take advantage of the situation to get the repair done for free. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/79 "2014-02-21T20:20:41Z")
I would like to point out that state laws about estimates vary. If the repair took place in California what the OP described is flat illegal. Other states have different rules such practice might be perfectly legal and a normal way of doing business. I agree with Gary T that I don’t think it is a wise way to do business. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747/80 "2014-02-22T00:23:38Z")
Got $150 back , case closed. Sorry if that makes your head explode. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/car-repair-question/681747.md?page=5)