# Cardinal Law in the Vatican **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314 "2005-04-08T00:48:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/61 "2005-04-09T21:19:38Z")
Wouldn’t an american Pope be in a better position to take more control of the american constituency? On the other hand, Those Catholics that were apalled by Law’s handling of the whole scandal might break away if this were to happen. Not that I am in any position to predict. I ain’t even christian, let alone Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Shadez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Shadez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shadez)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/62 "2005-04-10T19:19:20Z")
update [[cnn.com](http://cnn.com)]: [Protests planned for abuse cardinal’s papal role](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/10/cardinal.law/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/63 "2005-04-10T21:41:36Z")
What I always wonder about with the issue of pedo priests is why the parents didn’t just go to the police. If my mailman molested my kid, I wouldn’t call up the postmaster general, I’d call the goddamn police. Assuming I wasn’t already in jail myself for slaying the mailman. What Law did or didn’t do should never have been an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/64 "2005-04-10T21:49:51Z")
“All that happens with child abusing priests is that boys get abused, and not girls, and the parents are happy to get money in exchange for hushing up. the police are never called.” The above statements are lies. Go to [http://www.snapnetwork.org](http://www.snapnetwork.org), the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests and type “police” in the search engine. Be prepaired to be horrified. > [@](#): > > Yet last week, about 100 officers from the San Francisco Police Department stood in court behind Monsignor John Heaney, charged with eight felony counts of child sexual abuse. The officers’ insensitive action has harmed many molestation victims and may have hurt the department’s ability to pursue abusers in the future. [http://www.snapnetwork.org/survivors\_voice/clohessy\_sfpd\_protect.htm](http://www.snapnetwork.org/survivors_voice/clohessy_sfpd_protect.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/65 "2005-04-10T22:32:16Z")
That is indeed horrifying. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/66 "2005-04-11T00:46:50Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > What I always wonder about with the issue of pedo priests is why the parents didn’t just go to the police. Besides the aforementioned attitude of some LEA’s about reported priestly pedophilia (and in the past, about a lot of sex crime in general), remember that in turn the parents of those children were very likely raised in the Faith back when it had even MORE of a “the Church Can Do No Wrong” mentality, combined with a “siege” mentality (a.k.a. “Don’t give the protestants and the secularist liberals any ammo to attack the Church!”). The parents were probably educated with Sister whacking them across the knuckes with her ruler if they dared say anythign that questioned authority, and _their_ parents backing up Sister all the way. Add a salutary helping of “victim’s guilt” (always a component in handling sex crimes) and the parents were easily convinced that it was a freak ocurrence that affected only them, and that having the Church take care of it privately in some wise and holy manner was better than to bring in the police and then have to have a trial and testimonies and cross-exams. Heck, it’s not even exclusively Catholic. Around here it’s rare that 6 months go by w/o our local scandal-rag reporting that some minister or another has been turned in after any given period of picking off the congregation’s teenagers, until he ran into one that did not buy his line. Heck, we had one on trial lately that had several _parents_ of the girls backing _him_. People have this bad tendency to think they have to choose between Faith and Reason with no overlap… ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/67 "2005-04-11T02:14:06Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > There wasn’t much to do with Law. Sure there was: they could have stripped him of his office, laicanized him and thrown him on the street. And even that is better than he deserved. Filthy, worthless monster. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/68 "2005-04-11T03:36:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Sure there was: they could have stripped him of his office, laicanized him and thrown him on the street. And even that is better than he deserved. Filthy, worthless monster. Even better, there’s a service in the Latin rite, almost never used (I don’t believe it’s been used in at least a century), called the Rite of Degradation, which is a public rebuke and expulsion for a clergyman who has committed heinous and repugnant acts. Around the time the abuse scandal broke, there were some [commentators](http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=21242) who suggested the rite be brought back into use. Some pretty powerful language here: > [@](#): > > THE RITE OF DEGRADATION > > If the degradandus be an archbishop, the degrading prelate removes his pallium, saying: > > We deprive thee of the rights and privileges of the episcopal dignity, symbolized in this pallium, since thou hast abused them. > > Then, even if the degradandus be a mere bishop, the degrading prelate removes his mitre, saying: > > We strip thy head of this miter, emblem of the episcopal dignity, since thou hast befouled it by thy ill government. > > Then one of the ministers brings the Book of the Gospel to the degradandus, which the degrading prelate takes from his hands, saying; > > Give us back the Gospel! Since thou hast spurned the grace of God and made thyself unworthy of the office of preaching, we rightly deprive you of this office. > > Then the degrading prelate removes the ring from the finger of the degradandus, saying: > > Rightly do we pull off thy ring, the sign of fidelity, since thou hast made bold to rape God’s own bride, the Church. > > At this time one of the ministers brings the degradandus a crosier, which the degrading prelate takes from his hands, saying; > > Thy shepherd’s staff we take from thee, that thou shalt be powerless henceforward to exercise that office of correction, which thou hast brought to disarray. > > Then the ministers take off the gloves of the degradandus, and the degrading prelate lightly scrapes thumbs and hands with a knife blade or a shard of glass, saying: > > We hereby deprive thee, to the extent of our powers, of the grace of spiritual blessing and of sacramental anointing, that thou shouldst forfeit the office of sanctifying and of blessing, and their effects. > > With the same knife blade or shard the degrading prelate lightly scrapes the head of the degradandus, saying: > > We utterly erase and eradicate the consecration, blessing and anointing bestowed upon thee, and we put thee out of the episcopal order, whence thou returnest unclothed. > > The ministers remove the shoes from the degradandus Thus ends the ceremony. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/69 "2005-04-11T03:59:03Z")
I don’t get it-what exactly did those officers do in that article? Did they show up at court in a show of support, or something? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/70 "2005-04-11T04:10:02Z")
It sounds from the article like it was kind a cross between that and Hell’s Angels showing up when one of their own is on trial. > [@](#): > > 100 policemen’s attempt to over-awe abuse court brings quick new rules; SAN FRANCISCO (CA): San Francisco police officers who show up in court to support people accused of crimes must do so while off-duty and out of uniform, a top police official said Wednesday. The new directive comes after some 100 police officers – including Deputy Chief Greg Suhr and some retirees – showed up at a court hearing last month to support Monsignor John Heaney, 75, a police chaplain accused of molesting a boy 40 years ago. Heaney has pleaded not guilty to eight felony counts. The show of force at the Jan. 29 hearing included some officers in uniform and prompted criticism from a group of people representing persons who were molested by Roman Catholic priests. (Poynteronline) – San Francisco Chronicle, [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/06/BA144636.DTL](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/06/BA144636.DTL) “Courtroom dress code for police,” Feb 6 03 In addition, when one searches the site I linked to([www.snapnetwork.org](http://www.snapnetwork.org)), one will see a large amount of slowness in police responce, lack of care, and disbeliefe. At first I blamed it on the satanic child abuse hoaxs of the 80s, but then I realized that it seems to be more a combination of…well, read the article and decide for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/71 "2005-04-11T18:37:22Z")
> [@yBeayf](#): > > Even better, there’s a service in the Latin rite, almost never used (I don’t believe it’s been used in at least a century), called the Rite of Degradation, which is a public rebuke and expulsion for a clergyman who has committed heinous and repugnant acts. Around the time the abuse scandal broke, there were some [commentators](http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=21242) who suggested the rite be brought back into use. Some pretty powerful language here: Sounds absolutely made-to-order for both the molesting priests and for their superiors, such as Cardinal Law, who transferred them to fresh hunting grounds every time the local laity started to rebel at the abuse committed on their children. And why not exhume the corpse of Karol Wojtyla (I’m not calling him a Pope ever again), and perform the rite on his dead body, for having heaped honors on Cardinal Law, despite knowing full well what sort of man he was honoring? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/72 "2005-04-11T21:05:01Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I’ve always been curious about how widespread the issue is outside of the US, which is a more litigious society as a rule, and more likely to prosecute such matters, than, say, one might expect in African or Latin American dioceses. Can’t speak for any other countries, but here there have been at least two cases here. One in which a priest in charge of a orphanage has been accused of multiple counts of abuse over a number of years. The case has not reached trial yet, but had tried to escape the country a couple of times and has not been defrocked yet. In the other case an ex-Deacon, who \*was \*defrocked because of years of scandals, but was left at his post in charge of a catholic orphanage has been accused of murdering a couple that had apparently been blackmailing him, then mutilating, dismembering, putting in a drum and setting the bodies on fire. You know, the stuff movies are made of. > [@](#): > > **Deacon is sent to jail** > Suspect of the death of 21 year old Joel Sarmiento and his 20-year old wife Yaniris Sanchez, Meregildo Diaz Mejia was sent to Najayo prison after a very long, 15 hour, session that included a four-hour period of deliberation by the judge handling the case. Judge William Encarnacion ordered preventive custody for the deacon that had worked at the Hainamosa Children’s Center. > _[snip]_ > The bodies of the couple were found in two 55-gallon tanks in Hatillo. > > [www.dr1.com](http://www.dr1.com) > (archived news) The response of the cardinal? He ordered that everyone, even \*suspected \*of having any homosexual tendencies be thrown out of the seminaries. Because we all know… :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/73 "2005-04-11T21:28:01Z")
As noted in the Great Debates thread, perhaps because the abuse of boys gets the most media attention and biggest hush-money payouts, it seems that many people forget that there are many girls and young women abused by priests, too. [A Salon story](http://www.snapnetwork.org/priest_stories/the_gay_purge.htm) on The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests notes that some people think most of the abuse may involve girls and the focus on abuse of boys allows the Church to shift the blame on “homosexuality”. [quote] That answer may make sense to many, since the sex cases that have received the most attention have involved priests who have molested young boys. And turning the scandals into a “gay” issue allows the church to suggest that it, too, is a victim in the scandal. Rather than being responsible for pedophile priests, the church can portray itself as victimized by gays who have sneaked into the priesthood. But it blurs a central fact at the heart of the controversy: No one, including the church itself, seems to know exactly how big the sex scandal really is, who it involves or what role homosexuality plays in child abuse by priests. At least one well-known clinical psychologist says he believes the victims are much more likely to be girls and women. “There are far more heterosexual cases than homosexual,” says Gary Schoener, a clinical psychologist who has been diagnosing and treating clergy abuse for 28 years. “The Vatican damn well knows that, and the leadership in the American church knows that.” [/qutoe] ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/74 "2005-04-12T00:42:02Z")
> [@yBeayf](#): > > Even better, there’s a service in the Latin rite, almost never used (I don’t believe it’s been used in at least a century), called the Rite of Degradation, which is a public rebuke and expulsion for a clergyman who has committed heinous and repugnant acts. Around the time the abuse scandal broke, there were some [commentators](http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=21242) who suggested the rite be brought back into use. Some pretty powerful language here: Hey, I like it … _that_ is the kind of traditionalism I could get behind if only for the entertainment value… BUT it’s no wonder it hasn’t been used in a century… only an invalid is gonna stand still for all of this rigmarole w/o at some point telling the Apostolic Delegate to go fuck himself and the Holy Father too… Too complicated! I kept expecting the next step to be dropping a tray of ice cubes down his trousers, or making him stand on one foot (“As you have made the Church lose standing, so should you not stand firm…”), or covering him in green slime. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/75 "2005-04-12T02:40:26Z")
> [@](#): > > only an invalid is gonna stand still for all of this rigmarole w/o at some point telling the Apostolic Delegate to go fuck himself and the Holy Father too. Well, as originally intended, the Church would have the temporal authority to compel the hierarch to participate in the rite; after the rite was over, the hierarch would be turned over to the secular authorities, if warranted. I suppose the Church could threaten the hierarch with excommunication if he did not submit to the rite, though how effective that would be would depend on how seriously the hierarch believed in the Church’s spiritual authority. > [@](#): > > I kept expecting the next step to be dropping a tray of ice cubes down his trousers, or making him stand on one foot (“As you have made the Church lose standing, so should you not stand firm…”), or covering him in green slime. The rite makes more sense if you are familiar with the ordination process for a bishop; it’s basically the vesting of the bishop in reverse – he starts out in full episcopal attire and at the end is left barefoot and in common clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/76 "2005-04-12T14:30:14Z")
Maybe they could have someone stand-in for the ex-bishop? A degradation-by-proxy. You’d still get all the symbolism… ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/77 "2005-04-12T16:14:20Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > As noted in the Great Debates thread, perhaps because the abuse of boys gets the most media attention and biggest hush-money payouts, it seems that many people forget that there are many girls and young women abused by priests, too. [A Salon story](http://www.snapnetwork.org/priest_stories/the_gay_purge.htm) on The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests notes that some people think most of the abuse may involve girls and the focus on abuse of boys allows the Church to shift the blame on “homosexuality”. > > > [@](#): > > > > That answer may make sense to many, since the sex cases that have received the most attention have involved priests who have molested young boys. And turning the scandals into a “gay” issue allows the church to suggest that it, too, is a victim in the scandal. Rather than being responsible for pedophile priests, the church can portray itself as victimized by gays who have sneaked into the priesthood. But it blurs a central fact at the heart of the controversy: No one, including the church itself, seems to know exactly how big the sex scandal really is, who it involves or what role homosexuality plays in child abuse by priests. > > > > At least one well-known clinical psychologist says he believes the victims are much more likely to be girls and women. > > > > “There are far more heterosexual cases than homosexual,” says Gary Schoener, a clinical psychologist who has been diagnosing and treating clergy abuse for 28 years. “The Vatican damn well knows that, and the leadership in the American church knows that.” That’s something that really bothers me, too. I’m not Catholic, but I was raised a good, Episcopal kid. I remember playing keep away in the pool one summer with a bunch of people including our current priest. I was reluctant, at first, to cover him as closely as I would someone else, although that did change when he tried to give me one hell of a Baptism! :eek: I was raised to respect priests and their authority. I still remember how naive I was when I was a little girl and how much church meant to me, not to mention how desperate I was for attention. Is it any less horrendous when a little girl is sexually abused? I sometimes get the feeling that in some ways it is so, because that’s women’s lot and women, even girls, are supposed to be tempting to men in ways men aren’t. My city’s heavily Catholic, and I’ve been hearing Pope John Paul II lionized for days. He did a great many good things, but in this contrary Anglican’s eyes, he also did his share of bad, most notably in promoting Cardinal Law and in the way he handled the whole sex abuse scandal in general. I have a niece and nephew in Massachusetts, both of whom are Catholic. I pray things have changed or, if not, that my brother has taught them that in some cases one had bloody well better disrespect a priest! CJ ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314/78 "2005-04-12T21:21:28Z")
> [@](#): > > And turning the scandals into a “gay” issue allows the church to suggest that it, too, is a victim in the scandal. Rather than being responsible for pedophile priests, the church can portray itself as victimized by gays who have sneaked into the priesthood. But it blurs a central fact at the heart of the controversy: that higher-ups in the Church, such as Cardinal Law, weren’t ‘victimized’ by anybody, and the sex(es) of the children being molested was incidental to the shell game Law and other men in funny hats played to move about and conceal molesting priests at the expense of the Catholic children they victimized. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-law-in-the-vatican/298314.md?page=3)