# Cardinal Mahoney: God Grant Me The Grace To Forgive My Accusers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 27, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521 "2013-02-27T15:13:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/321 "2013-03-04T15:44:30Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Logic dictates that your belief system would require all females of child-bearing ages to be prohibited by law from participating in any activity that could: No, logic doesn’t dictate that. You presumably agree that a five year old child is a human being. And you presumably agree a bicycle accident can kill a five year old child. Yet you presumably understand why we don’t pass laws forbidding five year old children from riding bikes. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/322 "2013-03-04T15:46:43Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Yep, rob the dead to pay for the sins of the Church. Frankly, I’m surprised they paid for it out of a fund like that and didn’t close schools and charities in a pet then argue that those big meanies just absolutely forced them to do it. Robbing the dead is better than fucking over the living. They just happen to be doing both. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/323 "2013-03-04T15:47:25Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Good. Now if we could only go back in time and have you simply say that you think Mahoney didn’t have the specific intent to stop the arrest or prosecution of the priests because … well because you want to believe it, we’d be all good. We wouldn’t have had to delve into your misrepresentations of why the grand jury didn’t indict, the mutual exclusivity of motive v. intent confusion you continue to sow, or your conclusions on the lack of evidence. Fine. I don’t believe Mahoney had the specific intent to stop the arrest or prosecution of the priests. I acknowledge that there’s a sufficient factual record for a rational finder of fact to conclude otherwise, however. And you presumably still agree that regardless of this concession, the statute of limitations issue prohibits a criminal conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/324 "2013-03-04T15:57:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fine. I don’t believe Mahoney had the specific intent to stop the arrest or prosecution of the priests. I acknowledge that there’s a sufficient factual record for a rational finder of fact to conclude otherwise, however. Doesn’t this, by definition, make you an “irrational finder?” It certainly does in my book. Mahoney did not intend to stop the arrest or prosectution of the priests in his attempt to save the good name of the church? Remind me again what would have happened to the good name of the church if those priests had been arrested and prosecuted - (I mean, hypothetically, of course because Mahoney made damn sure that never happened)? You see no disconnect there? Alrighty … enjoy your tainted communion wafers, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/325 "2013-03-04T16:05:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fine. I don’t believe Mahoney had the specific intent to stop the arrest or prosecution of the priests. Why do you refuse to believe reality? > **[Roger Mahony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Mahony#Sexual_abuse_cases)** > > Roger Michael Mahony KGCHS (born February 27, 1936) is an American Catholic retired prelate who served as Archbishop of Los Angeles from 1985 to 2011. He previously served as an auxiliary bishop of the Diocese of Fresno from 1975 to 1980 and Bishop of Stockton from 1980 to 1985. > Born in Los Angeles and raised in the San Fernando Valley, Mahony was ordained to the priesthood in 1962. He was appointed auxiliary bishop of Fresno in January 1975 and consecrated bishop in March 1975. Mahony was the... > [@](#): > > By 2012, local authorities had obtained internal Church documents showing Mahony had organized the movement of sexual predators across jurisdictional boundaries to complicate any possible prosecution. In 1987 he prohibited a priest from seeking therapy for his urges on the grounds that a therapist might report the crimes to the police. The only thing I can conclude is that you are fine with men raping little children as long as they are Catholic priests. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/326 "2013-03-04T16:09:33Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Doesn’t this, by definition, make you an “irrational finder?” Not in the slightest. A rational fact finder can conclude a number of different things from the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/327 "2013-03-04T16:12:46Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Why do you refuse to believe reality? > > [Roger Mahony - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Mahony#Sexual_abuse_cases) > > The only thing I can conclude is that you are fine with men raping little children as long as they are Catholic priests. The statement in Wikipedia that you quoted is sourced to the [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/28/opinion/cardinal-mahony-and-the-truth.html?_r=1&) Opinion Page, and an editorial that reads as follows: > [@](#): > > “Sounds good — please proceed!” the cardinal, now retired, instructed in 1987 after the aide, Msgr. Thomas Curry, cautioned against therapy for one confessed predator — lest the therapist feel obliged to tell authorities **and scandalize the archdiocese**. (Emphasis added). This seems to support the point I am making. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/328 "2013-03-04T16:22:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fine. I don’t believe Mahoney had the specific intent to stop the arrest or prosecution of the priests. I acknowledge that there’s a sufficient factual record for a rational finder of fact to conclude otherwise, however. And we’re done with the “he meant to protect the Church” as having any bearing on whether or not he had the specific intent to protect priests from arrest or prosecution? See, you came into the thread with guns ablazing over the use of the term “criminal” and made a big deal out of the differing legal and colloquial use. Then, in the very same thread, you relish the use of the legal term “intent”, ignoring the legal requirements of its use and muddying the waters by confusing it with the more colloquial “motive”. Your inconsistency, as well as the factual errors and problematic conclusion based on the evidence, are why it is hard to respect your opinion. > [@Bricker](#): > > And you presumably still agree that regardless of this concession, the statute of limitations issue prohibits a criminal conviction. I believe so. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/329 "2013-03-04T16:32:36Z")
I’m not a church, but if I find out that a subordinate has been committing horrific crimes while under my supervision, and I turn that subordinate in, it’s evidence that I’m a good citizen, rather than an enabler, and that any liability I or the organization I represent might bear for inadequate supervision of the subordinate ought to be mitigated. Why would an official of the Church reason differently? I just can’t figure it out. Guess that just shows that I’m not cut out to be an official of the RCC. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/330 "2013-03-04T16:34:10Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Frankly, I’m surprised they paid for it out of a fund like that and didn’t close schools and charities in a pet then argue that those big meanies just absolutely forced them to do it. Robbing the dead is better than fucking over the living. They just happen to be doing both. The RCC is richer than god. The Vatican could have paid that $660 mill with money from the proverbial sofa back. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/331 "2013-03-04T16:35:44Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > And we’re done with the “he meant to protect the Church” as having any bearing on whether or not he had the specific intent to protect priests from arrest or prosecution? I agree that simply having the intent to protect the Church does not precluse his also having the criminal intent to deflect prosecution. But we’ re not done with my denial that he had the specific intent to protect priests from arrest or prosecution. > [@](#): > > See, you came into the thread with guns ablazing over the use of the term “criminal” and made a big deal out of the differing legal and colloquial use. Then, in the very same thread, you relish the use of the legal term “intent”, ignoring the legal requirements of its use and muddying the waters by confusing it with the more colloquial “motive”. Your inconsistency, as well as the factual errors and problematic conclusion based on the evidence, are why it is hard to respect your opinion. I did not take the time to lay out my argument as specifically as I could have. This led to the confusion over what I was pushing as far as my argument with respect to intent. I don’t believe, however, that even if I had laid out the specifics that are now clear, my opinion would have been respected. I don’t believe there’s any real interest here in the question of whether Mahoney is a criminal – only that he’s criminal-ish. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/332 "2013-03-04T16:38:14Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’m not a church, but if I find out that a subordinate has been committing horrific crimes while under my supervision, and I turn that subordinate in, it’s evidence that I’m a good citizen, rather than an enabler, and that any liability I or the organization I represent might bear for inadequate supervision of the subordinate ought to be mitigated. But it isn’t. By turning someone in, you’ve helped the victims make their case for inadequate hiring, poor supervision, poor training. Turning an offender in does NOT typically mitigate damages as to acts already done. Admittedly, it would mitigate damages in the sense that the malefactor could no longer offend in the future. But it doesn’t take the organization off the hook. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/333 "2013-03-04T16:55:13Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The RCC is richer than god. The Vatican could have paid that $660 mill with money from the proverbial sofa back. But they usually say that any rule that goes against them is an excuse to harm others. Can’t discriminate against gays? Well, I guess we can’t deal with adoptions. Can’t tell women what to do with their bodies? Well, I guess we can’t fund hospitals. It’s actually an improvement that they didn’t say, “Oh, we have to give money out? Well, I guess we have to end all charitable giving.” ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/334 "2013-03-04T17:00:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree that simply having the intent to protect the Church does not precluse his also having the criminal intent to deflect prosecution. I’d go further to say that his motive to protect the Church makes it even more likely to have the criminal intent to deflect investigation and prosecution. > [@Bricker](#): > > But we’ re not done with my denial that he had the specific intent to protect priests from arrest or prosecution. And, outside of the “he didn’t have the criminal intent because he wanted to protect the Church” baloney rationale we’ve rejected, what evidence is there to support your conclusion? To me, it seems pretty cut and dried that he intended to obstruct the investigations in order to protect the Church. > [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t believe, however, that even if I had laid out the specifics that are now clear, my opinion would have been respected. I don’t believe there’s any real interest here in the question of whether Mahoney is a criminal – only that he’s criminal-ish. There are ongoing discussion of both the legal and the moral aspects of his behavior. And we agree that Mahoney is reprehensible human being for his moral failings in dealing with these cases. But it was your legal conclusions that, to me, were where you lost credibility. And that doesn’t help your position. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/335 "2013-03-04T17:00:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But it isn’t. By turning someone in, you’ve helped the victims make their case for inadequate hiring, poor supervision, poor training. Turning an offender in does NOT typically mitigate damages as to acts already done. Thanks for clearing that up (wrt damages). But as far as the reputation of my organization, showing a willingness to step forward and accept the consequences of my inadequate hiring, poor supervision, poor training should make me look better, rather than worse, to disinterested observers (at least). ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/336 "2013-03-04T17:03:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t believe, however, that even if I had laid out the specifics that are now clear, my opinion would have been respected. I don’t believe there’s any real interest here in the question of whether Mahoney is a criminal – only that he’s criminal-ish. To my mind you have not laid out a plausible mechanism for how moving these priests would protect the the church other than by preventing their prosecution and that is what is making not respect your opinion in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/337 "2013-03-04T17:11:16Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But they usually say that any rule that goes against them is an excuse to harm others. Can’t discriminate against gays? Well, I guess we can’t deal with adoptions. Can’t tell women what to do with their bodies? Well, I guess we can’t fund hospitals. > > It’s actually an improvement that they didn’t say, “Oh, we have to give money out? Well, I guess we have to end all charitable giving.” The Church has assets it can sell. It has investments, it has gold bullion, it has long term securities. It has art. It has property. It has banks. It has huge investments. It is the richest oraganisation on earth. It should pay for its sins from its own blood and sinews. It’s been accumulating wealth for coming on to 2000 years. It had $115m in just one cemetry fund. The cash assets alone are estimated at [Euro 50 billion](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/financial-scandals-the-hidden-wealth-of-the-catholic-church-a-700513.html) > [@](#): > > Financially speaking, Germany’s dioceses are in excellent shape. “The Catholic Church claims that it’s poor, but the truth is that it hides its wealth,” says Carsten Frerk, a Berlin political scientist who, after years of research, is publishing “Violettbuch Kirchenfinanzen” (The Violet Book of Church Finances) this fall. Frerk estimates the cash assets of the church’s legal entities at about €50 billion. I seem to recall reading something about camels and eyes of needles. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/338 "2013-03-04T17:29:34Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > I’d like to take a moment to say that I don’t believe those attacking **Bricker** on moral grounds have a leg to stand on. None of this attempts to rebut what I said in post #276. You’re welcome to your opinion, of course, but in my case it’s totally unsupported for now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/339 "2013-03-04T17:54:30Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > To my mind you have not laid out a plausible mechanism for how moving these priests would protect the the church other than by preventing their prosecution and that is what is making not respect your opinion in this matter. Preventing their prosecution is what protects the Church’s reputation. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/340 "2013-03-04T17:55:32Z")
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but it seems like any secondary objective would be sufficient to prevent prosecution under your interpretation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521.md?page=18)