# Cardinal Mahoney: God Grant Me The Grace To Forgive My Accusers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 27, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521 "2013-02-27T15:13:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/481 "2013-03-07T01:58:08Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > His moral calculus is incorrect even if we replace the embryo with a fully grown 45 year old. It is morally indefensible to cause more harm than necessary to an innocent when it is 100% certain it will make no difference in the outcome. > > The person/embryo is going to die regardless of our actions. If removing the fallopian tube offered any chance of a different outcome then an argument could be made to take that option but with today’s medical technology that will not happen so you are harming the mother for no defensible reason. Why am I obligated to accept your moral calculus? I say there’s a difference between killing a person and letting events unfold as a passive observer, even if the same death is the result. And while I can’t prove it, I contend that most people recognize it. Note the difference in response to these two scenarios: A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are five people who will surely be killed when it hits. You could flip a switch, which will lead the trolley down a different path, a sidewalk. Unfortunately, there is a single person – a heavy man – on that sidewalk. Flip the switch or do nothing? Most people agree that the switch should be flipped. Now the second scenario: the five people are still in the path of the trolley. But now you are on a bridge over the tracks with the heavy man next to you. Your own body would be too light to stop the train, but that if you push the stranger onto the tracks, the stranger’s large body will stop the trolley and save the five lives. That, unfortunately, would kill the heavy man. Most people would agree that it would be wrong to push the man… EVEN THOUGH THE SAME RESULT ensues. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/482 "2013-03-07T02:09:38Z")
Wait, is the heavy man Newt Gingrich? Is the heavy man recently returned from a spiritual cleansing, like confession, and thus blessedly pure, having not had enough time to blot his Permanent Record? What about my intentions here? Is one or several of the five people a hottie, with an overwhelming lustful craving for smart-ass old farts? Hell, might push two fat guys in, just to be on the safe side. Is the heavy man the kind of man who would jump in front of the train, if only there were time enough to explain? What if my intention were just to rid the world of another fat guy, and saving those other people never crossed my mind. If Jesus were there, would he help me push? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/483 "2013-03-07T02:10:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well… That is a very reasonable position to hold. > > I simply disagree. I think you would, too, if I tried to apply it in other contexts. If I tried to craft some framework where convicted felons become involuntary organ donors, for example, I suspect you would recoil at the idea that one human being’s need for comfort or happiness could override another’s. > > But I grant that there’s a distinction between what you said and that. > > But you love moral hypotheticals. Suppose it was a profoundly retarded person, someone with effectively no personality, no interaction, who had the nice juicy organ. Suppose the organ recipient was a beloved entertainer who brings joy to millions? > > Can we craft ANY hypothetical that gets you thinking maybe a born human being should give up his life to help out someone else’s medical care? All of the above seems to be assuming the fetus is a human being, which as you know is not an assumption shared by your interlocutors. As to your last question, it’s not relevant whether the “born human being” should give up their life or not–the question is whether the government ought to pass a law requiring that “born human being” to die. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/484 "2013-03-07T02:19:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why am I obligated to accept your moral calculus? > > I say there’s a difference between killing a person and letting events unfold as a passive observer, even if the same death is the result. > > And while I can’t prove it, I contend that most people recognize it. > > Note the difference in response to these two scenarios: > > A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are five people who will surely be killed when it hits. You could flip a switch, which will lead the trolley down a different path, a sidewalk. Unfortunately, there is a single person – a heavy man – on that sidewalk. Flip the switch or do nothing? > > Most people agree that the switch should be flipped. > > Now the second scenario: the five people are still in the path of the trolley. But now you are on a bridge over the tracks with the heavy man next to you. Your own body would be too light to stop the train, but that if you push the stranger onto the tracks, the stranger’s large body will stop the trolley and save the five lives. That, unfortunately, would kill the heavy man. > > Most people would agree that it would be wrong to push the man… EVEN THOUGH THE SAME RESULT ensues. So…in the first scenario you propose, it’s not your fault the heavy man got struck by the trolley, even though it happened as a direct and foreseeable consequence of your deliberate action? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/485 "2013-03-07T02:22:56Z")
Just so I know, are all Catholics, and/or everyone who is pro-life profoundly hate women, are brainless, and live detached from human reality? Or is that just **Bricker**? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/486 "2013-03-07T02:34:18Z")
I’m pro-life, at least in the sense that my visceral reaction to abortion is very negative. I don’t like it. So? My body, my business, her body, her business. My degree of respect and/or affection for women doesn’t even _necessarily_ enter into it. None of my beeswax. Oh, and I doubt its possible to be less Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/487 "2013-03-07T02:52:29Z")
How about this hypothetical? You’ve been drugged by that Human Centipede crazy-ass doctor. When you awake, you find yourself with another victim of CAD. You’re both in a room slowly filling with deadly nitrogen gas. Some quick math says that you have 5 minutes to live. Fortunately there’s an unlocked door. Unfortunately, your other victim is unconscious and shackled to the wall. You have no way of unshackling him. Also, your finger has been surgically attached to a hole in his femoral artery, such that your finger is the only thing preventing him from bleeding to death in a matter of seconds. You find a pair of scissors in your other hand. Option 1) You cut out a small section of his femoral artery and head for the door, while he bleeds to death. Option 2) You cut off your finger and head for the door. He dies 4 and a half minutes later. Option 3) You let fate resolve the situation. You both die. ISTM that some anti-abortion people really do believe in option 3, which I put squarely in “sick fuck” territory. The Catholic Church, from what I understand, says that option 2 is the way to go. This would be the removal of a fallopian tube. Anyone else with a brain would choose Option 1 and keep their finger. Do I have that about right? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/488 "2013-03-07T03:36:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why am I obligated to accept your moral calculus? > > I say there’s a difference between killing a person and letting events unfold as a passive observer, even if the same death is the result. > > And while I can’t prove it, I contend that most people recognize it. > > Note the difference in response to these two scenarios: > > A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are five people who will surely be killed when it hits. You could flip a switch, which will lead the trolley down a different path, a sidewalk. Unfortunately, there is a single person – a heavy man – on that sidewalk. Flip the switch or do nothing? > > Most people agree that the switch should be flipped. > > Now the second scenario: the five people are still in the path of the trolley. But now you are on a bridge over the tracks with the heavy man next to you. Your own body would be too light to stop the train, but that if you push the stranger onto the tracks, the stranger’s large body will stop the trolley and save the five lives. That, unfortunately, would kill the heavy man. > > Most people would agree that it would be wrong to push the man… EVEN THOUGH THE SAME RESULT ensues. There are a few issues with making this hypothetical line up with ectopic pregnancy. First, the heavy man is a true innocent in your example. In ectopic pregnancy the embryo is causing the death of both itself and the mother. I feel people would be much more sympathetic to tossing the fat man if he had endangered the passengers in the first place. Second, there is no sense of ‘over use of force’ in any of your options. We have advanced enough so that it is medically unnecessary to remove a fallopian tube so one of your options should have a sense of unnecessary sacrifice forced on an innocent person. I submit the below. There is a train with one innocent person on board who just happens to be the owner of the train company. A track maintenance worker is working in the switching booth and is about to switch the train to a track that will have it collide with the switching station (poor design I know). He is rocking out to the latest Hendrix album and cannot hear you shout and you have no time to cover the distance between yourself and the switching station. You can: a. Let events proceed knowing with the uncanny confidence of the hypothetical that the train will crash killing both the passenger and the maintenance worker. b. Due to a fortunate stroke of luck you have your sharpshooting gear with you and are the world’s best shot. You can shoot the maintenance worker and save the passenger with the only harm done being the maintenance worker. c. You also have a rocket launcher with you that you can use to take out the whole switching station. You know for a fact that this launcher is so kick ass that it will destroy the station, kill the worker, and make it so a train will never pass this way again! You are telling me that most people would choose c. over b.? I can’t see, rationally, how taking an action that knowingly causes the death of a person plus wider spread unnecessary destruction is better than a targeted response that causes the death of a person but no unnecessary damage. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/489 "2013-03-07T03:40:45Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > How about this hypothetical? > > You’ve been drugged by that Human Centipede crazy-ass doctor. When you awake, you find yourself with another victim of CAD. You’re both in a room slowly filling with deadly nitrogen gas. Some quick math says that you have 5 minutes to live. Fortunately there’s an unlocked door. > > Unfortunately, your other victim is unconscious and shackled to the wall. You have no way of unshackling him. Also, your finger has been surgically attached to a hole in his femoral artery, such that your finger is the only thing preventing him from bleeding to death in a matter of seconds. You find a pair of scissors in your other hand. > > Option 1) You cut out a small section of his femoral artery and head for the door, while he bleeds to death. > > Option 2) You cut off your finger and head for the door. He dies 4 and a half minutes later. > > Option 3) You let fate resolve the situation. You both die. I’d cut off my own finger and bug out. Then I’d get to a REAL doctor to disconnect the rest of the human centipede from my asshole, cut a finger off one of the dead ones, and sew it on me. P.S. I know it wouldn’t be very nice to have the atmosphere have ONLY that, but is nitrogen gas really deadly? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/490 "2013-03-07T03:48:28Z")
The atmosphere is about 80% nitrogen, so it’s not poisonous. 100% nitrogen is fatal. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/491 "2013-03-07T05:37:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is that, exactly? > > Who decided that the brain was the center of personhood? > > I agree it’s the center of much of what makes people people. I don’t agree it’s presence is the definition of a person. Please elucidate. How is a human scientifically determined to be brain dead, a “human.” No emotions, communication, needs, wants, feelings, emotions, growth or anything else we associate with being alive. Is a definitive vegetative state (life-support in cases of brain death) the way to go? Who benefits and why? I know the answer. Do you? I have a cousin on life-support since he went into a comma from a motorcycle accident four years ago last moth. Brain-death diagnosed from the start. Other than insane Catholic faith by his Mom, what’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/492 "2013-03-07T06:06:11Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > P.S. I know it wouldn’t be very nice to have the atmosphere have ONLY that, but is nitrogen gas really deadly? Anything which has 0% oxygen is deadly. There are some gases, such as sarin, which are deadly in smaller quantities because they attack the nervous system and others which don’t necessary cause death if there is oxygen present, but if they completely replace the oxygen then they are deadly. IIRC, “deadly” is more typically used for gases which are deadly in smaller quantities. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/493 "2013-03-07T06:25:12Z")
My cousin Clay, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/494 "2013-03-07T07:50:33Z")
How did we get on this topic from the OP about Cardinal Mahoney being a criminal scumbag? ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/495 "2013-03-07T10:31:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > At this point, as far as I’m concerned, everyone in the modern world who’s still a practising Catholic is no different from being a fervent Nazi in 1945 - you _have to_ know you’re a bad guy, that you are completely on the wrong side of history, that your leaders are evil men, that your cause is going down in flames. And yet you persist. I can see two reasons - you’re evil too, or you’re insane. > [@Reyemile](#): > > How did we get on this topic from the OP about Cardinal Mahoney being a criminal scumbag? **Bricker** happened though he had a lot of help. All this talk of humans is a misnomer, what we care about, or what we should care about, are what makes a Person. A tumor is ‘human’ in that it contains human DNA, an embryo is ‘human’ for the same reason. Neither are Persons though as one requirement of Personhood, indeed it may be the only important one, is a functioning brain. As such it is OK to destroy them, even more so when these ‘human’ things are harming an actual Person. The Catholic church disagrees of course because they believe in magic. Adults believing in magic in the 21st century is obviously nonsense but if no harm comes of it, so be it. However here we have people believing in magic causing direct harm which is damn scary. Educate your children in science people and the belief in magic will go away. Eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/496 "2013-03-07T13:43:07Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > All of the above seems to be assuming the fetus is a human being, which as you know is not an assumption shared by your interlocutors. > > As to your last question, it’s not relevant whether the “born human being” should give up their life or not–the question is whether the government ought to pass a law requiring that “born human being” to die. Yes, I realize that my assumption is not shared by my interlocutors. But why is my assumption to be cast aside, and theirs accepted? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/497 "2013-03-07T13:44:30Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > So…in the first scenario you propose, it’s not your fault the heavy man got struck by the trolley, even though it happened as a direct and foreseeable consequence of your deliberate action? Your intention in flipping the switch was to direct the trolley away from five people. The fact that the single man is hit was an unintended secondary effect. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/498 "2013-03-07T13:47:04Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > How about this hypothetical? > > You’ve been drugged by that Human Centipede crazy-ass doctor. When you awake, you find yourself with another victim of CAD. You’re both in a room slowly filling with deadly nitrogen gas. Some quick math says that you have 5 minutes to live. Fortunately there’s an unlocked door. > > Unfortunately, your other victim is unconscious and shackled to the wall. You have no way of unshackling him. Also, your finger has been surgically attached to a hole in his femoral artery, such that your finger is the only thing preventing him from bleeding to death in a matter of seconds. You find a pair of scissors in your other hand. > > Option 1) You cut out a small section of his femoral artery and head for the door, while he bleeds to death. > > Option 2) You cut off your finger and head for the door. He dies 4 and a half minutes later. > > Option 3) You let fate resolve the situation. You both die. > > ISTM that some anti-abortion people really do believe in option 3, which I put squarely in “sick fuck” territory. > > The Catholic Church, from what I understand, says that option 2 is the way to go. This would be the removal of a fallopian tube. > > Anyone else with a brain would choose Option 1 and keep their finger. > > Do I have that about right? Analogies are suspect, but this one is not bad. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/499 "2013-03-07T14:16:33Z")
In other news, Cardinal Mahoney remains a criminal scumbag who in a just world would be inhabiting a jail cell at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/500 "2013-03-07T14:18:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, I realize that my assumption is not shared by my interlocutors. > > But why is my assumption to be cast aside, and theirs accepted? For the reasons I’ve been trying to raise, and you’ve been ignoring. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521.md?page=26)