# Cardinal Mahoney: God Grant Me The Grace To Forgive My Accusers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 27, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521 "2013-02-27T15:13:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/521 "2013-03-07T22:33:03Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > Dude, seriously, chill. It was very clear he was referring to the previous post (wife’s finger grafted onto criminal’s artery? for realz?). I’m sorry to hear about your friend. Don’t let Bricker’s obstinate ‘it’s all just beliefs’ schtick get to you. Whoa whoa whoa, the guy with the artery in my hypothetical wasn’t a _criminal_, he’s just an innocent victim. The only criminals here are the pedophile-protecting Catholic priests. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/522 "2013-03-07T22:40:20Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Yeah, I tried to put my > “It’s a child, not a choice, but it’s not really a child, but more of a potential child, but before you get all up in my face with the tired, old “well, isn’t sperm a potential child?” nonsense, let me say that it is much, more of a potential child than that sperm, or the unfertilized egg, or the couple bottles of wine with a great dinner, followed by a childless evening and that should be enough, because we are dealing in a grey area, where the question of when something is “human”, when it deserves protection, and how do we balance that protection against a person’s right to self determination and control of her own body and the simplistic belief that all gray areas should be unjudged is silly” bumpersticker didn’t fit on my Toyota. Very appropriate for you, **hamlet** – But are you sure you own a Toyota? That IS the question… ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/523 "2013-03-08T03:01:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, I was referring to the Human CentIPad scenario as being something for sick puppies, and it certainly isn’t that I deny being one myself. 😉 > > I too am very sorry for the useless destruction of your friend. Perhaps you could mention him in the gun-control threads and see how easily some of the \*real \*sick puppies there can dismiss it. Please accept my apologies. I did misunderstand. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/524 "2013-03-08T13:54:31Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Whoa whoa whoa, the guy with the artery in my hypothetical wasn’t a _criminal_, he’s just an innocent victim. The only criminals here are the pedophile-protecting Catholic priests. I don’t think you should call them criminals as that implies they have been tried and convicted and they haven’t. What? … What?? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/525 "2013-03-08T21:42:09Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > So…will you address the analogy if it’s not bad? Would your actions in that hypothetical be consistent with the actions the RCC demands and which you believe are moral? I guess not. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/526 "2013-03-09T07:21:14Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Please elucidate. How is a human scientifically determined to be brain dead, a “human.” > > No emotions, communication, needs, wants, feelings, emotions, growth or anything else we associate with being alive. Is a definitive vegetative state (life-support in cases of brain death) the way to go? Who benefits and why? > > I know the answer. Do you? I have a cousin on life-support since he went into a comma from a motorcycle accident four years ago last moth. Brain-death diagnosed from the start. > > Other than insane Catholic faith by his Mom, what’s the point? I’m very sorry to hear that. A close friend of mine has a similar issue with her brother. Her parents, or at least her mother(with dad doing what she wants) won’t let him go out of some mad hope, against the advice of his doctors, that he might “wake up.” If anything, I honestly think the family would have been better off if he’d been killed in the car accident. At least then they could simply say goodbye and move on, or at least move on as well as can be expected. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/527 "2013-03-11T23:12:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Unfortunately, there are good ways, fair ways, and poor ways to approach balancing those competing imperatives. > [@Bricker](#): > > Because, like the Bishop in Hugo’s story would be if ten Jean Valjeans showed up at his house, the Church would very quickly stop being in better financial position than most – not because of reparation for the harm they caused, but for damages that would be awarded BEYOND the harm they caused. Stellar synthesis, friend Bricker. If I may engage in a dialectic of my own? There are good ways, fair ways and poor ways to prosecute scumbags. The poor way is to fabricate evidence against them or bribe the judge. The good way is to only prosecute for laws one can be reasonably certain they violated. The fair way is to be disingenuous, to exploit the biases of the jury and to prosecute crimes unrelated to the scumbags main behaviour. So far we have dismantled “the least of these my brothers”, “sell your material possessions” and “lilies of the field” (the population could not be sustained). This equally applies to “ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake”: far better to surreptitiously spread the faith and be pragmatic about it. Obnoxiousness will only get one so far: claiming mutual compatibility of tenets and conglomeration of beliefs is likelier to lead to survival. Similarly, praying in public ought to be encouraged once a religion has become entrenched in society: while it may lead to a reaction, a higher profile will help it spread. Likewise, we cannot claim that woe will betide lawyers. Law, along with math, is the basis of civil society (it being merely the official recognition of fact). As long as laws are based on consensus, there will always be dissent and coercion will be necessary to stifle that dissent. This makes exhortations not to resist evil meaningless. We can also extrapolate that “they know not what they do” is to be discarded, since humans are held to have agency and the phrase was addressed to individuals above the age of majority. It is impractical to assume that humans will have one mate for life. One study put average life sex partners for Britons at 8.8. The Coolidge effect is well documented. Perpetual virginity is another doctrine which can be dismissed out of hand, given references to the siblings of Jesus. Quite apart from coveting one’s neighbour, it is also juvenile to prohibit coveting the possessions of a neighbour - relative deprivation is an impetus to action. There is an inherent contradiction between the claim that faith can move mountains and that one ought not put the lord to the test. Every prayer is an attempt to reinforce existing beliefs, an attempt to prove, rather than disprove, the existence of a personal God. The requirement for a bishop to be the husband of one wife is clearly tosh, given the number of other important duties a bishop must carry out. Quite so with the notion that Jesus was presenting his physical body for his disciples to eat - they clearly had other means of sustenance. Now that we’ve dispensed with the teachings of Jesus, his predecessors and his apostles, we can establish an effective church. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/528 "2013-03-13T04:21:46Z")
[$9.99 million.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/13/us-usa-church-abuse-idUSBRE92B15D20130313?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews) ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/529 "2013-03-13T09:24:24Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > [$9.99 million.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/13/us-usa-church-abuse-idUSBRE92B15D20130313?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews) > [@](#): > > As part of the settlement, approved by a Los Angeles judge earlier this month, none of the parties admitted wrongdoing. That’s right the Catholic Church, who would have you believe are moral arbiters on this earth with a direct line to God himself, admit no wrongdoing in this case where it is clear they protected and enabled a paedophile. I sometimes wish they were right and there was a Hell. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/530 "2013-03-13T12:44:20Z")
> [@martu](#): > > That’s right the Catholic Church, who would have you believe are moral arbiters on this earth with a direct line to God himself, admit no wrongdoing in this case where it is clear they protected and enabled a paedophile. Because he’s still a cardinal, he’s participating in the conclave to elect the next Pope. If the rest of the cardinals had any decency, they’d exclude him. Of course, who knows how many of the other cardinals were also involved in coverups of priestly child sexual abuse? _Vatican delenda est._ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/531 "2013-03-13T13:44:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > _Vatican delenda est._ – Licinius, Roman Emperor, 308-324 (paraphrased) But, somehow… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/532 "2013-03-13T15:05:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But, somehow… How profound. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/533 "2013-03-13T15:17:36Z")
And inappropriate, given the data showing how severely shrinking are the numbers of people who still offer their loyalty to that denomination. It’s a little early to say definitively that they’ve become totally irrelevant to the world except for a few old, deluded diehards, but \*delenda \*is unquestionably the direction. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/534 "2013-03-13T15:28:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > If the rest of the cardinals had any decency, they’d exclude him. Of course, who knows how many of the other cardinals were also involved in coverups of priestly child sexual abuse? Probably every European, North american, Australasian and South American one. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/535 "2013-03-13T15:48:12Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Probably every European, North american, Australasian and South American one. Really? You have some reason for thinking the African and Asian Churches are clean? Because from what I’ve seen, those scandals will be breaking soon. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/536 "2013-03-13T15:53:29Z")
I wonder how much of the conversation is along the lines of “\*Any \*of you guys wanna tell us you’re sure you’re clean? Anybody? We need to pick _somebody_. We sure got fooled by Ratzo. Mahoney, Law, you two just shut the fuck up, okay?” ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/537 "2013-03-13T16:35:57Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > Really? You have some reason for thinking the African and Asian Churches are clean? > > Because from what I’ve seen, those scandals will be breaking soon. No reason at all other than I’m not aware of any specific scandals but I’m sure you’re right and it’s only a matter of time. But for the regions I named the scale of atrocities commited by the RCC in them is so immense that it is inconceivable that the RCC isn’t guilty en masse at the higher levels. The RCC is guilty from the Pope on down and IMHO should be treated as an international criminal organisation. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/538 "2013-03-13T16:41:08Z")
…to find it’s [living above a gay sauna](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21753860). > [@](#): > > A historic palazzo in Rome that houses a key Vatican department is also the home of a well-known gay sauna. > > The Holy See paid 20m euros (£17.5m) in 2008 for around 20 apartments in the building for the Congregation for the Evangelisation of Peoples. > > Its Prefect Emeritus, Cardinal Ivan Dias, is one of the priestly residents. > > The proximity to Europa Multiclub, billed as Italy’s top gay sauna, has drawn comment due to the Vatican’s strict stance on gay partnerships. > > The facility boasts a Turkish bath, Finnish sauna, whirlpools and massages. > > Also on offer are “bear parties”, which are advertised on its website with a video of a man stripping down before donning clerical attire. Ha-ha \ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/539 "2013-03-13T16:48:59Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The RCC is guilty from the Pope on down and IMHO should be treated as an international criminal organisation. The organization and its leaders, yes. But there are still many, many very fine individuals in it, doing wonderful work, who have had nothing whatever to do with child rape or Vatican Bank corruption, and are unfairly labeled as guilty by association. If only they had the ability to do that work inside another denomination, or outside religion altogether - or at least the ability to decide the RCC as it exists today isn’t \*The \*Church after all. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/540 "2013-03-13T17:04:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If only they had the ability to do that work inside another denomination, or outside religion altogether - or at least the ability to decide the RCC as it exists today isn’t \*The \*Church after all. If people associate and give their allegiance to such a corrupt institution then that’s the price they pay. Besides, I don’t beleive for one secnd that the ‘good’ done by the RCC is anything more than a feather on the scales. [This article](http://www.economist.com/node/21560536) details its expenditure. > [@](#): > > The church is the largest single charitable organisation in the country. Catholic Charities USA, its main charity, and its subsidiaries employ over 65,000 paid staff and serve over 10m people. These organisations distributed $4.7 billion to the poor in 2010, of which 62% came from local, state and federal government agencies. So. In the USA 62% of the funding could simply be allocated to some non-criminal organisation. And whatever comes from donations etc can also go to same. And people could also devote their time and energy to same. Besides the Mafia and Hamas do all kinds of good works also. Don’t get them a pass. Maybe to some organisation that doesn’t kill people by lying about AIDS and contraception. Doing good does not require the RCC. More good could be done if its assets were seized, sold off and the proceeeds used for charitable ends. Just like it wasn’t possible for anyone of goodwill to turn the blindest of eyes to the crimes of Communism after the Hungary invasion it is no longer possible to do that with the RCC. At this point you’re just aiding and abetting. Time to start again and build the kind of Church that won’t have Jesus weeping when he returns. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521.md?page=28)