# Cardinal Mahoney: God Grant Me The Grace To Forgive My Accusers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 27, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521 "2013-02-27T15:13:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/61 "2013-02-27T18:20:55Z")
**Bricker** , I can’t read the mind of the author of the second comment, but I believe it expressed the sentiment that those poor people who have the audacity to confront the good cardinal about his misdeeds compromise the subset of criminals who aren’t imprisoned, but should be. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/62 "2013-02-27T18:28:31Z")
And by the way: > [@Steve\_MB](#): > > the Church’s new cardinal virtues Har-har-HAR-de-har-HAR! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/63 "2013-02-27T18:30:13Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Jesus fuck, WHO CARES? I do. And I guess you should, too, but it seems you don’t regard “Fighting Ignorance,” as of any particular interest. I’m sorry you don’t. I still do. But since I’m doing my fighting of ignorance on a board whose stated mission is fighting ignorance, your opposition seems misplaced. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/64 "2013-02-27T18:33:08Z")
Thank you Mr. Data. That will be all. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/65 "2013-02-27T18:33:46Z")
Banging on about the legalistic meaning of criminal when it’s obvious the writer was using it in a colloquial sense is not fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/66 "2013-02-27T18:33:59Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > By the way, you’re always harping on me for not applying precisely the same standard of outrage/scolding in all contexts. If this thread had been started about someone in an organization that you personally have absolutely no interest in one way or the other, but with the same ambiguity in the use of the word “criminal”, would you have devoted the same level of energy and verbosity in an attempt to correct what you viewed as a misuse of the word? Yes. To take one example, I vigorously defended Ted Kennedy against someone who was calling him a murderer, despite the fact that I was not then nor am not now much of a Ted Kennedy fan, and would have been happy, from a PR perspective, to let the matter lie. Oddly enough, there was much appreciation from the SDMB masses for that courageous stance. Oddly enough, no one stepped up to point out how “murderer” could be used in multiple contexts and so I should let it go. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/67 "2013-02-27T18:35:00Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Banging on about the legalistic meaning of criminal when it’s obvious the writer was using it in a colloquial sense is not fighting ignorance. And in my very first response, I alluded to that very possibility, didn’t I? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/68 "2013-02-27T18:35:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I do. > > And I guess you should, too, but it seems you don’t regard “Fighting Ignorance,” as of any particular interest. > > I’m sorry you don’t. I still do. > > But since I’m doing my fighting of ignorance on a board whose stated mission is fighting ignorance, your opposition seems misplaced. Sure, and if the thread was “So, did Cardinal Mahoney technically commit a crime”, your input would be valuable and interesting. Instead it’s “jesus, that guy Cardinal Mahoney’s got some serious balls for a child molestor”, and then you’re getting all technical about whether he’s a “child molestor” or just someone who abetted child molestation. Surely you can see the difference? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/69 "2013-02-27T18:35:46Z")
Mmm, Data seemed incapable of disingenuous or dishonest and fallacious reasoning, or of refusing to face the points being made to him. He also was genuinely interested in understanding how humans work, and wanted to be and act and feel as much more like them as he could. So I’d go with “Sheldon”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/70 "2013-02-27T18:37:32Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Let’s try this. > > _It’s a fucking shame that what he did is not covered under California’s criminal code because what this guy is far worse than what a lot of criminals already sitting in prison have done. This guy should be tarred and feathered, ridden out of town on a rail, then buried in the sand up to his neck so that the ants and buzzards could have him._ > How’s that? That’s fine. I mean … it’s not fine in the sense that I literally support the consequences outlined here, but that I’m fairly comfortable, in reading that, that I’m reading hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/71 "2013-02-27T18:39:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. To take one example, I vigorously defended Ted Kennedy against someone who was calling him a murderer, despite the fact that I was not then nor am not now much of a Ted Kennedy fan, and would have been happy, from a PR perspective, to let the matter lie. > > Oddly enough, there was much appreciation from the SDMB masses for that courageous stance. > > Oddly enough, no one stepped up to point out how “murderer” could be used in multiple contexts and so I should let it go. Hmm, I do not recall that thread. But assuming it was as you describe, I appreciate your even-handedness… although to a certain extent you did not answer my question, which was not so much “would you EVER” but “would you ALWAYS”. We all have a limited amount of time and energy to devote to posting on the SDMB. We can’t post every comment we might like in every thread we might ever possibly want to respond to. I therefore strongly suspect that your choice of what threads to engage in and what threads not to engage in is at least influenced, if not dictated, by factors such as “hey, the Catholic Church is an organization which I’m a member of, and care passionately about, and thus consciously or subconsciously would like to defend”. And there’s nothing wrong with that, and it should not be taken as evidence of bias or hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/72 "2013-02-27T18:40:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And in my very first response, I alluded to that very possibility, didn’t I? It’s not a possibility, it’s a certitude, and it renders the rest of your posts pointless and a waste of our time. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/73 "2013-02-27T18:41:07Z")
Taking this back to the actual intention of the OP, Cardinal Mahoney has said: > [@](#): > > In the past several days, I have experienced many examples of being humiliated. In recent days, I have been confronted in various places by very unhappy people. I could understand the depth of their anger and outrage–at me, at the Church, at about injustices that swirl around us. > > **Thanks to God’s special grace, I simply stood there, asking God to bless and forgive them.** Bolding mine. Later in this thread, **Bricker** has said about Mahoney: > [@](#): > > He’s a betrayer of trust, a slime, a sellout, a man who should be reviled. So Bricker, a comment and then a question for you: Mahoney is clearly saying that he is asking God to forgive those who express anger and outrage at him. He is not asking for forgiveness for himself from God, but rather is asking God to forgive others for their behavior towards him. So given this, do you feel that when you called Mahoney "a betrayer of trust, a slime, a sellout, a man who should be reviled. ", you committed an act that requires the forgiveness of God? Do you see anything wrong with a senior member of your church telling you directly that you have now committed an act that requires the forgiveness of God? Really, without the side-track of the precise definition of “criminal”, what do you think of Mahoney’s assertion that YOU should be the one that God forgives? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/74 "2013-02-27T18:42:39Z")
Mahoney’s expression of his feelings about the anger directed at him for his part in the coverups merely add fuel to the fire. He may feel he’s apologised enough, but it’s not up to him to decide that, really. That’s up to the people whose trust he betrayed. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/75 "2013-02-27T18:46:03Z")
Can we please get of the Bricker Hijack, and back to the actual OP where whether or not actual laws were broken and to the point that his blog post, was the most self aggrandizing, blame the victim, tone deaf, heartless piece of shit I have ever seen. Will it make Bricker shut up if BigAppleBucky agrees that when he said > [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > More of these criminals need to be sent to prison. He meant, “There should be laws in place such that behavior akin to that done by Cardinal Mahoney can be tried in a fully legal court proceedings subject to a jury of their peers such that if one performed the acts spelled out in the proposed statute that were akin to those performed by Cardinal Mahoney , they would likely be convicted guilty by said jury and be incarcerated in prison for a lengthy duration as so described by the said statute.” Also Bricker is it necessary that every comment be a laid out along similar lines in order for you to not hijack the thread? I am allowed to say that the Washington Wiazards suck without having to produce the etemology of the term, for fear that you will claim that they in no way resemble vacuum cleaner? I would also ask the Bricker describe in what way Cardinal Mahoney is a slime given that he appears to be entirely solid and made of meat. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/76 "2013-02-27T18:51:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But since I’m doing my fighting of ignorance on a board whose stated mission is fighting ignorance, your opposition seems misplaced. Whatever you say, Mr. Outliar. But sticking to the current topic, are there, or are there not, long-standing statutes that make it a crime to knowingly act to conceal, in whole or in part, a criminal’s connection to a particular crime? ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/77 "2013-02-27T18:53:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I do. > > And I guess you should, too, but it seems you don’t regard “Fighting Ignorance,” as of any particular interest. > > I’m sorry you don’t. I still do. > > But since I’m doing my fighting of ignorance on a board whose stated mission is fighting ignorance, your opposition seems misplaced. Y’know what? I’m offended by this. I’m offended that you claim to think that since I don’t give a crap whether a man who committed acts that are IN FACT NOW ILLEGAL and has been COLLOQUIALLY called a criminal in a fucking message board thread is in fact TECHNICALLY an ACTUAL CRIMINAL, and that I’m annoyed that someone would hijack said thread to quibble about the difference, means that I don’t care about fighting ignorance. I don’t think you actually think that. You’re acting all injured because someone yet again dared to point out that the Catholic Church is less than perfect, and you came into this thread looking for targets and had to scrape up something you could fling poo at. Go to hell, you incurable pedant. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/78 "2013-02-27T18:55:38Z")
> [@](#): > > …are there, or are there not, long-standing statutes that make it a crime to knowingly act to conceal, in whole or in part, a criminal’s connection to a particular crime? Good one, **Arty**! Fucking _invite_ the guy to bore you to tears with legalistic citation and jurisimprudence. Whatsamatta you? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/79 "2013-02-27T18:55:59Z")
Heh. Sometimes I feel sorry (and, yes, admiration) for **Bricker** when he gets ganged up on by the Dope. This is not one of those times. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521/80 "2013-02-27T19:05:52Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Sure, and if the thread was “So, did Cardinal Mahoney technically commit a crime”, your input would be valuable and interesting. Instead it’s “jesus, that guy Cardinal Mahoney’s got some serious balls for a child molestor”, and then you’re getting all technical about whether he’s a “child molestor” or just someone who abetted child molestation. Surely you can see the difference? Here’s the problem: > [@BobLibDem](#): > > The guy’s a monster, if half of what has been said is true. It’s perfectly acceptable to be outraged and proclaim that he is a criminal and deserves to be in jail. Do I know if there is a specific statute that he could be tried and convicted on? No. Do I give a flying fuck? No. I believe him. That is: I believe **BobLibDem** would be perfectly comfortable in sending Mahoney to jail even without a specific criminal statute that was violated. And that attitude scares me much more than a hundred marauding Mahoneys does. I’m not getting all technical because I believe someone posted something that was just blowing smoke. I’m getting technical because I believe there’s a great deal of value in reminding people why we have laws and a system of justice. When I was a public defender, I saw people like that all the time. Some of them were prosecutors. They frightened the crap out of me, because they genuinely believed that the specifics of the law didn’t matter – they were prosecuting a bad guy, and so he deserved to be convicted. I hate that attitude, and I try to expose it whenever I can. We have a system of laws precisely so that some prosecutor can’t decide he doesn’t like you and stick you in jail. The price we pay for that system is a heavy one: sometimes we are confronted with monsters and have to accept that they go free, even though they did some bad shit. And when we stop remembering that, we start down a bad road indeed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cardinal-mahoney-god-grant-me-the-grace-to-forgive-my-accusers/651521.md?page=5)