# Care to reply to Aristotle? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359 "2010-11-30T02:32:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/1 "2010-11-30T02:32:18Z")
Here’s one: > [@](#): > > Now the mass of mankind are evidently quite slavish in their tastes, preferring a life suitable to beasts, but they get some reason for their view from the fact that many of those in high places share the tastes of [Sardanapallus](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Eug%C3%A8ne_Delacroix_-_La_Mort_de_Sardanapale.jpg). But people of superior refinement and of active disposition identify happiness with [honour](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Hamilton-burr-duel.jpg); for this is, roughly speaking, the end of political life. You may or may not be familiar with how this classic argument plays out. So what? What’s your reaction? Do you have anything to say to Aristotle at this point? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/2 "2010-11-30T03:43:38Z")
What does “honour” mean here? If it means public admiration, arguably that is a base end in political life, going for the cheers, the prestige, the picture posters, the book tours, the prize-ribbons of public life, instead of focusing on how best to serve society; but a civically useful one, as it allows the public to reward performance in public office with admiration or scorn. Thus, honour is an instrument of democracy. About which Aristotle was iffy. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/3 "2010-11-30T04:07:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What does “honour” mean here? If it means public admiration, arguably that is a base end in political life, going for the cheers, the prestige, the picture posters, the book tours, the prize-ribbons of public life, instead of focusing on how best to serve society; but a civically useful one, as it allows the public to reward performance in public office with admiration or scorn. I could add some more from Aristotle: > [@](#): > > But it seems too superficial to be what we are looking for, since it is thought to depend on those who bestow honor rather than on him who receives it, but the good we divine to be something of one’s own and not easily take from one. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/4 "2010-11-30T06:29:58Z")
I see no argument here, merely an unsupported assertation. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/5 "2010-11-30T06:46:08Z")
I’d rip into Aristotle for things way more important than this. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/6 "2010-11-30T06:51:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’d rip into Aristotle for things way more important than this. Given that he was struggling to crawl out of the muck and muddle that was pre-classical thought, I’m willing to cut him some slack. But I agree that by modern standards of argumentation, his points were fairly weak. ---
**Author:** ![dzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/7 "2010-11-30T06:57:04Z")
Being only tangentially familiar with the classics, is this meant to be a decision between hedonism and altruism - with the type of altruism being acts that inure to the public benefit such as building a temple to Athena or other god, building roads or public buildings, etc. It might be a decent argument for what _ought_ to make you happy. It might even be true for what makes someone happy when they look back on their life. But I think many would choose hedonism over public service and never have any regrets about it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/8 "2010-11-30T07:05:46Z")
> [@dzero](#): > > Being only tangentially familiar with the classics, is this meant to be a decision between hedonism and altruism - with the type of altruism being acts that inure to the public benefit such as building a temple to Athena or other god, building roads or public buildings, etc. It’s just Aristotle mentioning that different people have different beliefs as to what the purpose in life is ("the good), with some people saying it’s pleasure, some saying it’s honor, and some saying it’s wealth, and him coming to the conclusion that all three are unsuitable ends. ---
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/9 "2010-11-30T07:14:20Z")
I really don’t know what to say to a person who is so clearly locked in his own back-ground and culture. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/10 "2010-11-30T15:18:15Z")
> [@Walther\_Ego](#): > > I really don’t know what to say to a person who is so clearly locked in his own back-ground and culture. This made me laugh 🙂 Maybe you’re not trying to be funny… You do touch on what I’m getting at though. Often I feel like the “Some magical guy said so” model of ethics drives people mad. What is right and wrong? Why, here’s a list! Why are they on the list? Unverifiable magic guy said so, that’s why! Why doesn’t our culture have an ethical system based on reasons? Is it that the concepts fall apart with scrutiny? Or ethics become stale for different times? Is Artistotle’s classic debate just worn out, or never was any good in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/11 "2010-11-30T20:39:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s just Aristotle mentioning that different people have different beliefs as to what the purpose in life is ("the good), with some people saying it’s pleasure, some saying it’s honor, and some saying it’s wealth, and him coming to the conclusion that all three are unsuitable ends. Then what, in Aristotle’s view, would be a suitable end? I hope it is not “philosophy.” You cannot, after all, expect everyone to be philosopher. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/12 "2010-11-30T20:54:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Then what, in Aristotle’s view, would be a suitable end? > > I hope it is not “philosophy.” You cannot, after all, expect everyone to be philosopher. Pretty much happiness through virtuous living. It’s all laid out in the Nichomachean Ethics. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/13 "2010-12-01T03:20:03Z")
**Captain Amazing** is right. Aristotle calls happiness “the end of action.” He gets drawn to his concept of excellence, and goes on to define human good: “human good turns out to be activity of the soul in conformity with excellence, and if there are more than one excellence, in conformity with the best and most complete.” His notion of the soul seems different from what comes later in history; he makes claims like “reason is in the soul” and “happiness is an activity of the soul in accordance with complete excellence”. He gets woo about it only in passing and is probably referring to something that would be described in more conventional terms today. As it pertains to notions of ethics and pleasure, he says: > [@](#): > > those who act rightly win the noble and good things in life. > Their life is also in itself pleasant. For pleasure is a state of the soul, and to each man that which he is said to be a lover of is pleasant; e.g. not only is a horse pleasant to the lover of horses, and a spectacle to the lover of sights, but also in the same way just acts are pleasant to the lover of justice and in general excellent acts to the lover of excellence. Now for most men their pleasures are in conflict with one another because these are not by nature pleasant, but the lovers of what is noble find pleasant the things that are by nature pleasant; and excellent actions are such, so that these are pleasant for such men as well as in their own nature. I don’t know if somebody has to be exactly a philosopher to love excellence or justice, but it does seem to drift that way at least a little. I want to know what people think about the ideas themselves, but I’m also curious to hear people’s opinions on whether this approach can accomplish anything worthwhile vs. simply leading to the loony bin. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/14 "2010-12-01T04:00:39Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Why doesn’t our culture have an ethical system based on reasons? Is it that the concepts fall apart with scrutiny? Or ethics become stale for different times? Is Artistotle’s classic debate just worn out, or never was any good in the first place? People tried that. it failed. badly. As it turne out, people disagreed on the reasons, the conclusions, or more commonly, on the entire concept: there was never any reason for them to go along with it. In the end, all morality must be based on arbitrary ideas. Trying to base it on some special reason just wound being a laughable pretense of rationality for what was a very irrational thing. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/15 "2010-12-01T04:04:37Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Given that he was struggling to crawl out of the muck and muddle that was pre-classical thought, I’m willing to cut him some slack. But I agree that by modern standards of argumentation, his points were fairly weak. Most of what I’ve heard about Aristotle lately is from watching QI; whenever they mention him, it’s about how he was ridiculously wrong about something (though usually about something biological). What, if anything, did he actually get right? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/16 "2010-12-01T04:28:47Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > Most of what I’ve heard about Aristotle lately is from watching QI; whenever they mention him, it’s about how he was ridiculously wrong about something (though usually about something biological). What, if anything, did he actually get right? Formal logic? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/17 "2010-12-01T05:04:11Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > What, if anything, did he actually get right? Well, his pupil, [Alexander the Great](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great), conquered the known world… ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/18 "2010-12-01T06:29:07Z")
I’d tell Aristotle to get a life. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/19 "2010-12-01T06:55:29Z")
Hey Aristotle! you talkin’ shit about Sardanapallus? That’s my bro, bro. Don’t talk shit about him, his parties are the bomb. You talk shit about him someones gonna fuck your shit up, not me man, but someone, you hear what I’m saying? Cause Sardanapallus is a straight up motherfucker, allright. So just step off, Aristotle. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359/20 "2010-12-01T14:41:08Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well, his pupil, [Alexander the Great](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great), conquered the known world… But historians agree he probably never paid much attention to his tutor. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/care-to-reply-to-aristotle/562359.md?page=2)