# Career outcomes of West Point grads **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629 "2008-08-02T20:25:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/1 "2008-08-02T20:25:24Z")
What percentage of West Point graduates become generals? And, what percent will eventually get the coveted fourth star? Any ideas? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/2 "2008-08-02T22:41:24Z")
Considering that at the moment, the number of general officers is limited by law to something like 305, the odds aren’t good. West Point graduates about 1000 per year, give or take. This year it was 972. ---
**Author:** ![adirondack\_mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@adirondack\_mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adirondack_mike)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/3 "2008-08-03T00:11:08Z")
A quick look through wiki’s list of 4-star generals shows that 4 of 14 Army slots are West Point graduates. That includes pending appointments and joint commands. I thought it would be higher. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/4 "2008-08-03T00:47:35Z")
My Grandfather, my Dad and both my uncles were all West Point grads. Only my Dad achieved stars, as he retired a major general (two stars). It is extremely difficult to become a general officer, there’s a lot of politicking going on with the promotion boards at that level, and generally, the “majority rules”, so you see more infantry, armor and artillery promotions than anything else. Dad was an Engineer and got passed over a couple times for this very reason before he finally made it…they just couldn’t ignore his credentials anymore. I’d say without knowing that probably only about 5% make general officer, if that. Heck, I bet the percentage that actually achieves 20 year retirement status at whatever rank they are by then (usually Lt Col or Col) is well under 50%. Many grads do their minimum 5 year commission and bail. Having West Point and military service as an officer on your resume can land you a pretty good job in the civilian world, even if you only did your mimimum of 5 years and left as a 1st LT or Captain. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/5 "2008-08-03T01:29:33Z")
I don’t know if this helps your question but the numbers of officers coming out of regular university ROTC programs are going to swamp the number of West Point graduates. Many regular ROTC graduates are very qualified as well and academic military credentials will only take you so far years down the road. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/6 "2008-08-03T02:03:17Z")
In regard to \*\*Shagnasty’s \*\* post, however, is there still any prejudice against reserves vis-a-vis regulars (i.e. officers who come from the service academies.). Has an ROTC graduate ever made it to general (or admiral)? ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/7 "2008-08-03T02:11:18Z")
Colin Powell was a ROTC graduate. I’m sure there are many others. ETA: Wiki’s blurb on notable ROTC graduates: > **[Reserve Officers' Training Corps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROTC#Notable_Army_ROTC_graduates)** > > The Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC (/ˈrɒtsiː/ or /ˌɑːr oʊ tiː ˈsiː/)) is a group of college- and university-based officer-training programs for training commissioned officers of the United States Armed Forces. > While ROTC graduate officers serve in all branches of the U.S. military, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Space Force, and the U.S. Coast Guard do not have their own respective ROTC programs; rather, graduates of Naval ROTC programs have the option to serve as officers in the Marine C... ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/8 "2008-08-03T02:12:01Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] Has an ROTC graduate ever made it to general (or admiral)? [/QUOTE] [Colin Powell came out of the CCNY ROTC program, for starters](http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/powell-bio.html) [Hugh Shelton came out of North Carolina State’s ROTC](http://www.ncsu.edu/extension/sheltonleadership/about/) ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/9 "2008-08-03T02:17:47Z")
[QUOTE=bump] Considering that at the moment, the number of general officers is limited by law to something like 305, the odds aren’t good. [/QUOTE] Um, cite? Only reason I ask, is that I once heard an anecdote that the Air Force alone has something like 300 Flag Officers. . . STRATCOM has a bunch of 'em due to the nuclear mission, and I’m sure with the Navy and Army, there’s _got_ to be more than 305 on active duty alone (not including the Reserves or National Guard). Tripler I’ll keep looking through my electrons for a reference, though. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/10 "2008-08-03T04:37:00Z")
Thanks for your responses. By virtue of the numbers, I understand that there’s gonna be a lot more generals who became an officer through ROTC than who attended West Point. Still, although slim, one’s chances at making it to general are greater for a West Pointer than for someone who came in via another route such as ROTC, no? ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/11 "2008-08-03T11:15:33Z")
No…promotion is not based on where you went to school…it’s based on your merit and political savvy once you are in. Now, it may be that people who go to West Point are, on average, more into being in the Army, and therefore are more likely to make it a career, but it really doesn’t matter much once you are in. Anyway…I left as a Captain…ROTC Grad…as did several of my West Point grad friends. Some were excellent officers…others were very mediocre. It’s really up to the officer, not the school, as to how far you can advance. BTW…the current Army Chief of Staff, GEN Casey, did ROTC at Georgetown. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/12 "2008-08-03T14:55:30Z")
[QUOTE=Governor Quinn] [Colin Powell came out of the CCNY ROTC program, for starters](http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/powell-bio.html) [Hugh Shelton came out of North Carolina State’s ROTC](http://www.ncsu.edu/extension/sheltonleadership/about/) [/QUOTE] The last two US Air Force Chiefs of Staff were ROTC grads- John Jumper came from VMI and Michael Moseley came from Texas A&M. > **[John P. Jumper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_P._Jumper)** > > Vietnam War > Defense Distinguished Service Medal (3)Air Force Distinguished Service Medal (3)Army Distinguished Service MedalNavy Distinguished Service MedalCoast Guard Distinguished Service MedalDefense Superior Service MedalLegion of Merit (2)Distinguished Flying Cross (3)Meritorious Service Medal (3)Air Medal (18)Legion of Honor > John Phillip Jumper (born February 4, 1945) is a retired United States Air Force (USAF) general, who served as 17th chief of staff of the United States Air Force from... > **[T. Michael Moseley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Michael_Moseley)** > > Teed Michael "Buzz" Moseley (born September 3, 1949) is a retired United States Air Force general who served as the 18th Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force. He is a fighter pilot with more than 3,000 flight hours in fighters and trainers, most in the F-15 Eagle. > On 2 September 2005, Moseley assumed his final Air Force assignment as Chief of Staff of the Air Force—the senior uniformed Air Force officer responsible for the organization, training and equipage of more than 700,000 active-... All that aside, I’ve heard that it’s still pretty service academy slanted unless you’re really exceptional. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/13 "2008-08-03T14:58:30Z")
[QUOTE=Governor Quinn] [Colin Powell came out of the CCNY ROTC program, for starters](http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/powell-bio.html) [Hugh Shelton came out of North Carolina State’s ROTC](http://www.ncsu.edu/extension/sheltonleadership/about/) [/QUOTE] The last two US Air Force Chiefs of Staff were ROTC grads- John Jumper came from VMI and Michael Moseley came from Texas A&M. > **[John P. Jumper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_P._Jumper)** > > Vietnam War > Defense Distinguished Service Medal (3)Air Force Distinguished Service Medal (3)Army Distinguished Service MedalNavy Distinguished Service MedalCoast Guard Distinguished Service MedalDefense Superior Service MedalLegion of Merit (2)Distinguished Flying Cross (3)Meritorious Service Medal (3)Air Medal (18)Legion of Honor > John Phillip Jumper (born February 4, 1945) is a retired United States Air Force (USAF) general, who served as 17th chief of staff of the United States Air Force from... > **[T. Michael Moseley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Michael_Moseley)** > > Teed Michael "Buzz" Moseley (born September 3, 1949) is a retired United States Air Force general who served as the 18th Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force. He is a fighter pilot with more than 3,000 flight hours in fighters and trainers, most in the F-15 Eagle. > On 2 September 2005, Moseley assumed his final Air Force assignment as Chief of Staff of the Air Force—the senior uniformed Air Force officer responsible for the organization, training and equipage of more than 700,000 active-... Gen. Shalikashvili (former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) was an OCS graduate, and an immigrant to boot. > **[John Shalikashvili](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shalikashvili)** > > John Malchase David Shalikashvili (Georgian: ჯონ მალხაზ დავით შალიკაშვილი, romanized: jon malkhaz davit shalik'ashvili, .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}IPA: \[ʃalikʼaʃʷili\]; 27 June 1936 – 23 July 2011) was a United States Army general who served as Supreme Allied Commander Europe from 1992 to 1993 and the 13th chairman of the Join... All that aside, I’ve heard that it’s still pretty service academy slanted unless you’re really exceptional. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/14 "2008-08-04T15:05:26Z")
[QUOTE=Tripler] Um, cite? Only reason I ask, is that I once heard an anecdote that the Air Force alone has something like 300 Flag Officers. . . STRATCOM has a bunch of 'em due to the nuclear mission, and I’m sure with the Navy and Army, there’s _got_ to be more than 305 on active duty alone (not including the Reserves or National Guard). Tripler I’ll keep looking through my electrons for a reference, though. [/QUOTE] Perhaps he was refering to the Army only. Last time I checked, a few months ago, there were about 990 flag Officers thoughout DoD. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/15 "2008-08-04T21:47:53Z")
West Point graduates used to have the advantage of receiving Regular Army (RA) commissions, which were not given to ROTC graduates. I read somewhere that the policy had been changed to put USMA and ROTC graduates on a more equal footing. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/career-outcomes-of-west-point-grads/458629/16 "2008-08-04T22:00:49Z")
[QUOTE=mks57] West Point graduates used to have the advantage of receiving Regular Army (RA) commissions, which were not given to ROTC graduates. I read somewhere that the policy had been changed to put USMA and ROTC graduates on a more equal footing. [/QUOTE] It was changed a few years back–I am an AFROTC grad, and the whole thing made the news. Academy types, or “Zoomies” were granted Regular Commissions, whereas my commission is that of the Air Force Reserves (says so on my certificate, and that’s where the “R” in ROTC comes from). Now, across the board we’re all just ‘commissioned’. There’s a lot more to it (it straightens out funding or something) that I basically ignored, because a Captain is a Captain is a Lieutenant (JG). The whole thing is/was largely transparent to all of us. Tripler What do you call a ‘Captain’? A double-barreled Lieutenant. 😃