# Caring about stem cells & not veal calves is a sign of moral depravity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 5, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657 "2005-08-05T01:47:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/21 "2005-08-05T06:13:26Z")
> [@Argent Towers](#): > > I just watched a show tonight called “Bullshit” with Penn and Teller (the first time I’d ever seen it) and on that show, someone claimed that today’s generation of Americans is one that has not experienced real atrocity, and so some people look for something to be shocked and horrified by, and latch onto the cause of animal rights and PETA. Uhm, 9/11, the so called war on terror, etc, etc. Where the fuck have you been? > [@Argent Towers](#): > > I think that this is true. In countries with real problems (like parts of Africa, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East,) I doubt that PETA has many members. People are probably more concerned with the actual humans being killed around them (and where to find their next meal) to worry about the “rights” of a chicken. That is the whole point of the matter. Humans make qualifications about who has the right to live and die. We have no justifiable reason for believing in any qualifications. I mean, scream all you want, it isn’t coming. You can tell me you crunch puppy bones but guess what? **I don’t fucken care** what you do because as a human you are ultimately as powerless and pathetic as that calf attached to that rope. > [@Argent Towers](#): > > Likewise, when America’s history was filled with conflicts and suffering, there was no animal rights movement to be found. During the Civil War, during the Great Depression, during the World Wars, during Vietnam, people didn’t give a damn about animal rights because there were wars going on that the nation was involved with in a really tangible way (unlike the Iraq war, because the army isn’t drafting people and our death toll is small compared to other wars.) There was no animal rights but rights were in question. Take the Civil war. The black person was considered less than human and did not deserve rights. Funny isn’t it? WWII? Jews, Slavs, Homosexuals, and Gypsies, considered sub-human as well. The Vietnamese, to backwards to choose their own destiny. Are you starting to learn? Humans love to arbitrarily assign humanity to other lifeforms and to even themselves. > [@Argent Towers](#): > > I’d venture to say that most of PETA’s membership is probably made up of upper-middle-class people, who live comfortably, and have never had to see other people be killed or had to worry about going hungry. Just a hunch… The way you reason, I would seriously doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/22 "2005-08-05T06:22:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m a vegetarian and I do care about animal rights, although I’m honest enough to admit it comes a distant second to human rights in some cases. I appreciate your choice of being a vegitarian. And you’re welcome at my house anytime. If you can withstand the aroma of a T-Bone or Swordfish being grilled over charcoal, I will forever follow you. You will have proven you are much more disciplined than I. Just givin’ ya the needle there. 🙂 I’ll be the first to stomp my foot into anyone torturing animals. (And if anyone knows of someone being cruel to an animal send an e-mail to arrange gas and bail money, I love road trips)\* It’s nothing about you I get riled up about. It’s when people want to ascribe “rights” to animals that my bullshit meter starts smoking. Rights are “given” by humans. By definition there are no universal Rights. Rights are granted to those in power to grant them. When the hyenas and lions come to an agreement, we can talk about animals having rights. Surely a lion has a right to a feast without concern of a hyena stealing what it has killed? Otherwise we’re arguing about the punishment of people that mistreat another life. For whatever reason. For no other reason than profit. That gets me pissed. See the cite I offered. \*Seriously. If you fund it, I’ll take some PTO for a road trip. Just make sure the bail is paid. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/23 "2005-08-05T06:25:24Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > It’s nothing about you I get riled up about. It’s when people want to ascribe “rights” to animals that my bullshit meter starts smoking. Rights are “given” by humans. By definition there are no universal Rights. Rights are granted to those in power to grant them. That sounds to me like a terminology issue. Since this is not one of those causes that spurs me to action, I haven’t spent that much time considering it. Perhaps the fact that I am fine with scientific animal testing and don’t really care if other people eat meat indicates that I actually _don’t_ believe animals have rights, and that I am just bothered by cruelty to animals. Either way… ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/24 "2005-08-05T06:30:04Z")
> [@The Highwayman](#): > > Uhm, 9/11, the so called war on terror, etc, etc. Where the fuck have you been? On a nationwide scale? Uhm, WWII, Dust Bowl, Great Depression, USSR threat, East Berlin, fill in a shitload of blanks here. You honestly believe Americans can’t adapt to adversity?!? Uhm, forgot the poster. No point. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/25 "2005-08-05T06:32:57Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > On a nationwide scale? If P&T said this generation hasn’t experienced “real atrocity,” they were off-base. I know what you’re thinking here, but between the nature of the attacks and the way the country is connected by various media at this point? Somebody who watched September 11th on TV in Hawaii may have felt the impact more than somebody living in Maine felt the Dust Bowl. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/26 "2005-08-05T06:36:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That sounds to me like a terminology issue. Since this is not one of those causes that spurs me to action, I haven’t spent that much time considering it. Perhaps the fact that I am fine with scientific animal testing and don’t really care if other people eat meat indicates that I actually _don’t_ believe animals have rights, and that I am just bothered by cruelty to animals. Either way… Again, it wasn’t directed to you personally. Just trying to get about 27 different topics covered in one post. Trying to save bandwith and all. Or a hamster. See? I DO care about animals. If the hamsters get overworked the flesh gets chewy. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/27 "2005-08-05T06:46:51Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > It’s when people want to ascribe “rights” to animals that my bullshit meter starts smoking. Rights are “given” by humans. By definition there are no universal Rights. Rights are granted to those in power to grant them. The problem is that that is just your opinion - there is no quantifiable proof either way. [Except for the _Universal Declaration of Human Rights_ of course - but that is irrelevant to the “do animals have rights?” question]. Before slavery was abolished in your country, African-Americans had no rights. Yet there is no way you can argue that an African-American life was worth less than an Anglo-American life in the nineteenth century. Just because rights are not granted to a group, it does not follow that you can quantifiably argue that this means that everything is just and fair and that society should continue in this way. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/28 "2005-08-05T06:56:20Z")
**Highwayman,** you may “not fucken care” what I do, but you’re going to have to explain how I am ultimately as powerless and pathetic as the veal calf. I don’t really understand what you’re talking about. > [@The Highwayman](#): > > There was no animal rights but rights were in question. Take the Civil war. The black person was considered less than human and did not deserve rights. Funny isn’t it? WWII? Jews, Slavs, Homosexuals, and Gypsies, considered sub-human as well. The Vietnamese, to backwards to choose their own destiny. Are you starting to learn? Humans love to arbitrarily assign humanity to other lifeforms and to even themselves. PETA makes this same argument with their repugnant “Holocaust on your Plate” ad campaign. For someone who’s not a PETA member or even a vegetarian, you seem to be getting mighty worked up over this. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/29 "2005-08-05T06:59:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If P&T said this generation hasn’t experienced “real atrocity,” they were off-base. It wasn’t actually Penn who said it (Teller doesn’t talk, by the way) but a guy who appeared in an interview on the show. I can see what you’re saying, but the thing is that the generation that the guy was talking about was already established _before_ 9/11. The reason 9/11 was so shocking was because we had been in a state of peace for so long, and would never dream of an attack on our home front. It was that climate of peace which created the generation I speak of. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/30 "2005-08-05T06:59:26Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > The problem is that that is **just your opinion \*\* - there is no quantifiable proof either way.** [Except for the\* _Universal Declaration of Human Rights_\* of course -\*\* but that is irrelevant to the “do animals have rights?” question And just who is it that grants “rights”? Rights are a human concept, and therefore granted by humans. Give me even a tin-foil cite that shows animals respect/grant/honor rights and we have a starting point. BTW. My family came to America in 1889. Long after the Civil War and Emancipation. Furthermore, they came directly from Ellis Island to North Dakota. How this has fuck-all to do with slavery is beyond me. The fact you assign neverending guilt over slavery upon those that had nothing to do with it says a lot about you. Fighting ignornance. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/31 "2005-08-05T07:06:17Z")
> [@Argent Towers](#): > > It wasn’t actually Penn who said it (Teller doesn’t talk, by the way) but a guy who appeared in an interview on the show. I do know who they are. I very much enjoyed their Endangered Species Act and “miracles” shows last week. I do see what you’re saying with the rest of it. > [@The Highwayman](#): > > There was no animal rights but rights were in question. Take the Civil war. The black person was considered less than human and did not deserve rights. Funny isn’t it? WWII? Jews, Slavs, Homosexuals, and Gypsies, considered sub-human as well. The Vietnamese, to backwards to choose their own destiny. Are you starting to learn? Humans love to arbitrarily assign humanity to other lifeforms and to even themselves. This is why I call myself “a vegetarian who hates other vegetarians.” I hate this indignant mushheaded angry hippie bullshit. Fuck Godwin, just keep _human analogies_ out of the fucking issue. Either animal rights are a worthy cause or they’re not; if all your can do it draw hopelessly overblown parallels you have no argument. > [@Argent Towers](#): > > **Highwayman** , you may “not fucken care” what I do, but you’re going to have to explain how I am ultimately as powerless and pathetic as the veal calf. I don’t really understand what you’re talking about. It’s because we’re living in The Matrix. You think that’s air you’re breathing? ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/32 "2005-08-05T07:07:32Z")
What has your ancestry got to do with anything? Also, your post hasn’t added anything to the subject of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/33 "2005-08-05T07:09:55Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > **in your country, African-Americans had no rights. Yet there is no way you can argue that an African-American life was worth less than an Anglo-American life in the nineteenth century**. Just because rights are not granted to a group, it does not follow that you can quantifiably argue that this means that everything is just and fair and that society should continue in this way. Dumb-ass. What did this ass to the discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/34 "2005-08-05T07:11:29Z")
Actually, you did mention animal rights. By your argument, children who cannot understand the concept of laws and rights and therefore cannot respect/honour rights, should have no legally granted rights. That is the wrong way to approach this issue. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/35 "2005-08-05T07:11:43Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > What has your ancestry got to do with anything? > Also, your post hasn’t added anything to the subject of this thread. What, pray tell before I Pit you, does the history of slavery in the US you still bring up have to do with this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/36 "2005-08-05T07:12:34Z")
Why are you so bloody sensitive? I was using it as an analogy. Take your aggression out somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/37 "2005-08-05T07:13:07Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > Actually, you did mention animal rights. By your argument, children who cannot understand the concept of laws and rights and therefore cannot respect/honour rights, should have no legally granted rights. That is the wrong way to approach this issue. Well, yeah, for those that forgot to notice I mentioned animals and humans in seperately. (And yes, smatie, I mentioned that humans are animals) ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/38 "2005-08-05T07:14:08Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > Why are you so bloody sensitive? I was using it as an analogy. Take your aggression out somewhere else. I was here before you 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/39 "2005-08-05T07:15:51Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I was here before you 😛 Perfect argument really. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657/40 "2005-08-05T07:30:29Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > Perfect argument really. 😉 You win 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caring-about-stem-cells-not-veal-calves-is-a-sign-of-moral-depravity/315657.md?page=3)