# Carl Rove - Political Genius....discuss **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927 "2004-10-29T21:34:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/1 "2004-10-29T21:34:06Z")
Two of the latest items that have (arguably) put egg of the face of the democratic efforts I think can be layed at the feet of Carl “Machiavelli” Rove. My hypothesis: 1. ``` Carl Rove leaked , through back channels of course, the National Guard documents now accepted as forgeries. CBS and Mr. Rather run with the story and talking heads on TV begin to froth at the mouth at this apparent "smoking gun". The 'pubs remain silent while the hoax is uncovered and the dems look like they are desperately grasping at straws... ``` 2. ``` Mr. Rove again provides information via the NYTimes and CBS, again indirectly, that hundreds of tons of high explosives went missing after the fall of Baghdad. Kerry pounces on the President's incompetence and pundits resoundingly thrash the President for things such as not having enough troops on the ground and not having a postwar plan. The administration remains silent for a few days until information comes from the Pentagon via a US Army Major who looks as American as apple pie that he personally oversaw the removal of the explosives from that location, and that the amount in quetion represents only 1/1000th of the ammo recovered. How do the dems counter that? Call the soldier a liar? Say it was not the same explosives, making the Major look like he doesn't know what he is talking about? ``` I am not suggesting a debate of the above issues. I know that the explosives issue still is up in the air. I just wonder if Carl Rove is that much of a political (evil?) genius. If he is, I may just have to concede the election to Bush right now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/2 "2004-10-29T21:40:00Z")
Well, you’d be wise to concede the election to Bush, because he’s going to win. But the thing is… the burden of proof rests on the proponent of a theory. You cannot simply hypothesize that Rove was behind the Bill Burkett debacle without producing some sort of evidence in support of the theory. And if you don’t want to debate that, then your OP is sadly lacking in debatable topics; it becomes an IMHO-style poll: “Is Karl Rove capable of something like this? Check Yes or No.” ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/3 "2004-10-30T01:33:45Z")
Well, off the top of my head, I’d say he’s capable of at least as much as Metternich, and that’s saying a lot. Beyond that, I just got off the phone with my brother down in Texas. We agreed (wotta surprise, but stick with me here) that we simply could not figure out how the election could even be close. The economy is at best soggy. Iraq is a stone disaster to any objective observer, which I understand doesn’t include Bush’s base, but that’s only 40, maybe 45% of the electorate, not enough to make this a nail-biter. Something else is at work here. That something else is the edge a campaign gets from having a true genius, evil or not, working it for all its worth. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/4 "2004-10-30T03:52:17Z")
I would not be surprised to learn that Rove was behind the forged documents business. The Al Qaqaa scenario is another matter. New video has just emerged showing that the explosives were in fact there several weeks after the invasion. And now questions are opening up about other weapons sites that also weren’t guarded properly for months after the election. But as to Rove being a genius, no shit. Six months ago someone said: > [@](#): > > Presumably everyone here has now heard about the Kerry sex business. Briefly stated, Matt Drudge links to reports claiming that Kerry had had an affair with a young woman and the situation quickly became the only subject in town for the Limbaugh crowd for about forty-eight hours. Then a few sensible people decided to investigate the rumors, and it turns out (surprise, surprise) that they were complete and total bullshit. > > Here’s a different thought. Think back to Clinton. He was accused of criminal activity in the Whitewater Scandal. We now know he was innocent. He was accused of improperly acquiring FBI files. We now know he was innocent. He was accused of assisting the Chinese get information from Los Alamos. We now know he was innocent. He was charged with perjury in the Lewinsky scandal. He was found innocent. He was accused of mishandling plots in Arlington national Cemetery. He was innocent. And obviously this paragraph could keep going for a long time. But the point is that despite his always being vindicated when the truth was brought to light, many people assume that he must have been corrupt to some degree. It a psychological effect, in essence. When you hear so many accusations being lobbed against him, you tend to assume that he must actually be guilty of at least something even if there’s never any evidence against him. > > So is that what the conservatives are really gunning for with the Kerry business. Fabricate one “scandal” after another from thin air, and even though the facts will always show that it’s bullshit in the end, people will eventually assume that Kerry is a general sleaze even there’s no reason for it. Obviously this was Rove’s strategy right from the start. Keeping lobbing bogus charges at Kerry, and by the time he’s debunked one you’ve moved on to the next. The entire question of Bush’s competence has been entirely secondary throughout the whole campaign. Oh, and by the way, who said that six months ago? [Me.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=241039&highlight=fake+Kerry) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/5 "2004-10-30T16:51:13Z")
Karl Rove, while shrewd and sneaky and possessing the moral values of a frenzied tomcat, is not quite what I would call a “genius.” Even an eight-year-old can conclude that the best way to win a contest is to ignore the rules and cheat like hell. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/6 "2004-10-30T17:05:27Z")
Until I became aware of Mr. Rove, I used to dismiss most political conspiracy theories, thinking that people just aren’t by nature that devious and underhanded. Now that we have to figure in the _“Steaming Pile Of Rove Factor”_, I just cannot dismiss some of the theories being put forward nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/7 "2004-10-30T17:29:11Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > I am not suggesting a debate of the above issues. Then what are you suggesting a debate of? Please make a claim. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/8 "2004-10-30T17:56:53Z")
Rove has been a little dissapointing this cycle. Honestly, in 2002, he had the evil, evil, evil trick of making the Iraq War resolution as a prerequsite to reelection. Now he’s got almost nothing. What has he got, Wolves? That was actually quite lame. Who honestly cares about the memos? I am very much into politics, and even I consider Bush’s Vietnam record to be of little consequence. Eveyone knows he was in the guard, and that he really didn’t do much. I don’t really think that proof that bush AWOL or whatever would change my mind about anything if I were a supporter. Now… What about this guy claiming to be Al Queda. That dude from California or whatever. That could certainly be an eeeeeeevil rove plot. If it is, he is a bad, bad, bad man. Rove is a smart guy, but he’s no genius, otherwise Bush wouldn’t be off his game the last week, and that is what has happened. This election has broken Kerry’s way the last week. Honestly, in an all time political matchup, I’d like to see Clinton run against Bush. That would be the best election of all time, because the Big Dog had some pretty clever folks himself, but I imagine that Bill would win. Hey, if the Republicans want to have the native-born citizen requirement taken out of the Constitution, we Democrats have to take out the two-term limit. Then you have Clinton vs. Arnold in 2008! Okay I’m getting sidetracked. Rove is an evil genius in the sense that he uses all of his mental abilities with no scruples whatsoever. That’s pretty evil, but not so genius. What would be true genius is to do these things without being so overestimated. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/9 "2004-10-30T22:26:12Z")
"CRONKITE: KARL ROVE BEHIND BIN LADEN TAPE? Sat Oct 30 2004 16:31:19 ET Former CBSNEWS anchorman Walter Cronkite believes Bush adviser Karl Rove is possibly behind the new Bin Laden tape. Cronkite made the startling comments late Friday during an interview on CNN. Somewhat smiling, Cronkite said he is “inclined to think that Karl Rove, the political manager at the White House, who is a very clever man, he probably set up bin Laden to this thing.” Interviewer Larry King did not ask Cronkite to elaborate on the provocative election eve observation. Developing…" Apparently Uncle Walter thinks Rove is more involved than even I supposed! ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/10 "2004-10-31T01:27:19Z")
The hilarious thing is, almost NO Republican thinks Rove is a genius. Indeed, most Republicans think he’s overrated. But it’s so much fun to watch liberal Democrats pee in their pants in fear of that nerd, that it’s not worth trying to convince them how badly they’ve overestimated him! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/11 "2004-10-31T02:03:14Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > He was charged with perjury in the Lewinsky scandal. He was found innocent. If this statement is a representation of the quality of the quote you provided, you’re in trouble. Mr. Clinton was never “found innocent” of perjury charges. ---
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/12 "2004-10-31T02:10:42Z")
> [@pantom](#): > > Well, off the top of my head, I’d say he’s capable of at least as much as Metternich, and that’s saying a lot. > Beyond that, I just got off the phone with my brother down in Texas. We agreed (wotta surprise, but stick with me here) that we simply could not figure out how the election could even be close. The economy is at best soggy. Iraq is a stone disaster to any objective observer, which I understand doesn’t include Bush’s base, but that’s only 40, maybe 45% of the electorate, not enough to make this a nail-biter. > Something else is at work here. That something else is the edge a campaign gets from having a true genius, evil or not, working it for all its worth. I think that much of his success is built upon the message that the Republicans have been telling their base for the last 20 + years. For those that buy into it, their view of the world is built around it. I think the strong thread of religiosity woven through that message holds much of it together through it’s sense of morality. Some folks will vote on a single issue such as abortion ignoring the economy, Iraq etc. on the notion that if they do the right thing as they see it, God will take care of the rest through his vessel, GWB. Rove gets lots of leverage exploiting the message so well. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/13 "2004-10-31T02:35:50Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > The administration remains silent for a few days until information comes from the Pentagon via a US Army Major who looks as American as apple pie that he personally oversaw the removal of the explosives from that location, and that the amount in quetion represents only 1/1000th of the ammo recovered. Could you please cite for this part in particular: “he personally oversaw the removal of the explosives from that location” I watched the news conference and the guy said that they took some explosives from the site, but that they did not match the ones that were being questioned. I would appreciate it if you could clarify this for me. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carl-rove-political-genius-discuss/271927/14 "2004-10-31T06:59:50Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The hilarious thing is, almost NO Republican thinks Rove is a genius. Indeed, most Republicans think he’s overrated. > > But it’s so much fun to watch liberal Democrats pee in their pants in fear of that nerd, that it’s not worth trying to convince them how badly they’ve overestimated him! It’s like Tonya Harding – vastly overrated as a skater, but everyone keeps an eye out for errant lead pipes whenever she’s nearby…