# Carlos Ghosn. I'm not sure what to think **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190 "2020-01-09T21:57:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/1 "2020-01-09T21:57:22Z")
So I have been following this whole thing with Carlos Ghosn for a while now, and I have some seriously mixed feelings about the whole thing. [A recent report.](https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/09/business/carlos-ghosn-lebanon-travel-ban/index.html) Apparently he is accused of fiddling his taxes, misusing company assets for personal gain, and under-reporting his income. On the one hand, the low class peasant in me likes to see a multi-millionaire who (possibly) committed a felony being treated like a felon. On the other hand, it really does seem like he got a pretty raw deal. His argument that he was just playing the game by the rules in force in Japan, and his Japanese associates aren’t getting the same treatment seems to have some merit. If we take Ghosn’s statements at face value, he was not unjustified in running. On the other hand, taking it on the lam generally does make one look guilty. And on yet the third hand, my own personal experience in traveling to Japan suggests that, yes a foreigner isn’t going to get a fair shake from Japanese officialdom. And on the gripping hand; So it’s a falling out among thieves, why should I care? So, like I said, I have some mixed feelings about the whole thing. What do you all think? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/2 "2020-01-09T22:05:09Z")
I’m in the same boat. But I just read the Wikipedia article on Japan’s high conviction rate, and it throws me even deeper into the mire of feeling like I don’t know what’s going on here… > **[Criminal justice system of Japan | Conviction rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan#Conviction_rate)** > > One of the main features of the Japanese criminal justice system well known in the rest of the world is its extremely high conviction rate, which exceeds 99%. Some in the common law countries argue that this is to do with the elimination of the jury system in 1943; however, trials by jury were rarely held as the accused had to give up the right to appeal. Lobbying by human rights groups and the Japan Federation of Bar Associations resulted in the passing of a judicial reform bill in May 2004, Jap... ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/3 "2020-01-09T22:15:10Z")
That low class peasant in me tends, when seeing a fox hunt, to root for the fox. I just feel a little queasy about rooting for someone like Ghosn. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/4 "2020-01-10T02:39:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m in the same boat. But I just read the Wikipedia article on Japan’s high conviction rate, and it throws me even deeper into the mire of feeling like I don’t know what’s going on here… > > [Criminal justice system of Japan - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan#Conviction_rate) Their methodology (on which I read up this week in relation to this case) is shady and scary. Lock you up until you confess? Refile after a non-guilty verdict? Modify and refile after time expires? Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/5 "2020-01-10T02:45:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m in the same boat. But I just read the Wikipedia article on Japan’s high conviction rate, and it throws me even deeper into the mire of feeling like I don’t know what’s going on here… > > [Criminal justice system of Japan - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan#Conviction_rate) Their methodology (on which I read up this week in relation to this case) is shady and scary. Lock you up until you confess? Refile after a non-guilty verdict? Modify and refile after time expires? Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/6 "2020-01-10T02:53:49Z")
Ghosn was a pawn used for his ability to do what was considered unseemly in Japanese business society to fix Nisans’s problems. (i.e. fire people and disrupt interconnections, etc.) Japanese can’t stand to be dictated to by foreigners so once he finished his mission he was fed to the sharks. Same pattern as Michael Woodford in Olympus but a bit different. In Olympus he was hired as a fake CEO (with no real power) as a smoke screen distractor to distract the public from their financial crimes. The police arrested Ghosn because Nisan management told them to. It only came to light later that the police had no evidence of any crime, so they kept him arrested hoping for a confession. There were questionable transactions by Ghosn, sure, but all the other Japanese management had done similar things, but none of them went to jail. They just paid a fine. Ghosn is innocent of any crimes in Japan, but he was arrested because of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/7 "2020-01-10T03:14:54Z")
Could you imagine having that much power over the police? Getting them to arrest someone you don’t like because of incoherent reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/8 "2020-01-10T03:22:18Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > multi-millionaire who (possibly) committed a felony being treated like a felon. Not to be harsh on you at all, but what felony do you think he possibly committed? Please be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/9 "2020-01-10T03:27:23Z")
That’s an interesting perspective. I can easily understand that he was arrested because of racism. I find it harder to believe that he was innocent of any crimes in Japan. [Behind a paywall](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/as-carlos-ghosn-speaks-out-frances-silence-isdeafening/2020/01/08/ae4aab00-31ed-11ea-971b-43bec3ff9860_story.html) He seems to have committed financial improprieties in the US and France as well. Japan’s justice system sounds pretty scary though. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/10 "2020-01-10T03:32:39Z")
The articles I have read state pretty clearly that he allegedly under reported his income for tax purposes and diverted company resources to personal uses. The sums involved are allegedly in the multiple 100s of millions. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/11 "2020-01-10T03:36:27Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > That’s an interesting perspective. > > I can easily understand that he was arrested because of racism. I find it harder to believe that he was innocent of any crimes in Japan. How can I put this in a way that you will understand? Japan has laws that regard financial dealings. These laws are routinely flouted, daily, as a matter of course, three times before breakfast and without a single raised eyebrow. I don’t know why that is the system, but it serves two purposes. ONE, on an international stage you can point to the laws as showing how honest your society is, and TWO, you can throw anyone under the bus at any time. Live and learn. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/12 "2020-01-10T03:38:11Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > The articles I have read state pretty clearly that he allegedly under reported his income for tax purposes and diverted company resources to personal uses. > > The sums involved are allegedly in the multiple 100s of millions. He did not report a negotiated future income. Which you don’t have to do until you receive the income. It is that simple. Not guilty. He diverted funds to a related organization. That happens every minute in every large Japanese company. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/13 "2020-01-10T03:51:18Z")
The articles I read (and linked to) suggest that there is more to it than that (allegedly). Apparently one of the related organizations was a car dealership owned by a friend. Also the claim that the under reporting of income was only regarding future income is in dispute. I don’t find the claim that everybody else was doing it too to be at all surprising. I just think that if there is any injustice here, it’s that the rest of the C-suite isn’t in the dock with him. And I think that a great injustice indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/14 "2020-01-10T03:54:34Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > The articles I read (and linked to) suggest that there is more to it than that (allegedly). Apparently one of the related organizations was a car dealership owned by a friend. > > Also the claim that the under reporting of income was only regarding future income is in dispute. > > I don’t find the claim that everybody else was doing it too to be at all surprising. > > I just think that if there is any injustice here, it’s that the rest of the C-suite isn’t in the dock with him. And I think that a great injustice indeed. I basically agree with you. I would add that he couldn’t have done any of these supposed illicit transactions without it being OK’ed by the legal team and the board of directors. So they are all complicit. And he doesn’t do his own taxes, so whoever was doing that for him is responsible for what they did or didn’t report. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/15 "2020-01-10T04:35:57Z")
The succeeding CEO Saikawa says that it was a nationalist uprising from within the company that ousted Ghosn. (For those who don’t know, the press can never say “racist” in Japan, but nationalist means the same thing here) > **[Nissan hurt by Japanese nationalists, says outgoing chief](https://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/nissan-hurt-by-japanese-nationalists-says-outgoing-chief-1.4099071)** > > Hiroto Saikawa, who was chief executive of Nissan under Carlos Ghosn, issues a warning ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/16 "2020-01-10T05:54:51Z")
I think that was implicit in some of the other reporting on the matter. It seems clear that Ghosn got a raw deal. But he deserved it. But so did a lot of people who didn’t get caught. Like I said, I’m conflicted. It raineth on the just, And on the unjust fellow. But mostly on the just, Because the unjust steals the just’s umbrella. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/17 "2020-01-10T06:42:34Z")
I’m not sure anyone deserves a raw deal. People deserve justice. But the police delayed everything and would not charge him or begin proceedings. No due process so he escaped and forfeit his bond money (13 million) as well as a lot of property he probably had in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/18 "2020-01-10T08:18:01Z")
someone told me that if I ever went to japan to remember one rule in japan is " lots of stuff are illegal but its only a crime if done by a foreigner " ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/19 "2020-01-10T08:39:04Z")
Isamu, thanks for your insight, very interesting. We conclude then that the Japanese justice system is deeply institutionally racist, yes? What does this mean for investing in Japan? I have a very small proportion of my pension invested in a Japan fund (run from the UK) because I believe it’s a good place to invest. But this thread has made me question this somewhat. Like, is there a decent chance of the whole edifice crashing down in some way? I guess not - vested interests usually prevail. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190/20 "2020-01-10T10:13:09Z")
He probably is no Saint but he wasn’t going to get a fair shake as far as I can tell. I think it’s pretty badass actually that he was able to escape custody. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carlos-ghosn-im-not-sure-what-to-think/846190.md?page=2)