# Carnivale 11/30 The Day That Was The Day (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 1, 2003, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167 "2003-12-01T03:12:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/21 "2003-12-02T06:52:35Z")
I got home tonight to watch the last five minutes of the episode, and I’ve decided Justin’s speech is really one of the best parts of the entire season. It’s very moving in a disturbing kind of way. I just adore all the parts with Brother Justin. The creepy dinner scene where nothing happened…I felt kinda dirty just watching it. And then the conversation with Dolan. “I want one thing.” “My sister”. Just the way he said “My sister”…God…_shudder_ Clancy Brown is amazing at bringing that character to life. And of course, who doesn’t love the stunning simplicity of Norman’s vision? That blew me away. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/22 "2003-12-02T15:20:03Z")
Ben, the Creature of Light, had to choose to take a life himself for the resurrection of Ruthie to work; therefore the death of Appy, Sofie, and/or Jones had no effect on the spell at all. It’s been pointed out that Appy likes Jones, and she proved with the thunder she can control elements, so maybe Jones will be spared by her, if she sees him in time. Sofie and herself are goners unless Sofie has some sort of power that manifests itself in extremis. As for Lodz, Management, as Samson said, plays with people like dice. He ‘rewarded’ Lodz with the sight the latter had given up (probably for true mental abilities) for following his orders with Ruthie, but also because he was planning to betray him–not only could Ben see Lodz’ guilt better, but Lodz could look his killer in the face like a man and have a better chance of defending himself. When he was dead, Management sadistically ‘took back’ his gift, one last gesture of contempt for his lackey. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/23 "2003-12-02T15:24:53Z")
And yeah, Clancy Brown scared the hell out of me and has for a few weeks now–especially now that he seems convinced God has chosen him to be His Left Hand. After all, as Justin might see it, He sent Justin a sister, Iris, who’ll kill and do God knows what else for him; He sent him Tommy Dolan, who will give him a voice around the country; He sent him Balthus as a child, to bring him up and educate him properly; He spared his life via Balthus’ mercy, etc. What it means besides being a handsomer Father Coughlin, I don’t know, we’ll find out in '05. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/24 "2003-12-02T19:50:08Z")
**Da Pearl** : Deadwood? Tell me more! I haven’t seen any promos for it. When is it starting? Who’s in it? I love Westerns, so I’m very interested in this, but couldn’t find anything on [HBO.com](http://HBO.com) (but I didn’t look very hard either, I admit). My first memory of Clancy Brown is as The Kirgan in The Highlander. Evil then, evil now-- he’s good at playing evil. I think it’s his voice. He has the most amazing, deep, round voice. It gives me the shivers. He’s a far more appealing character than Ben Hawkins, I’ll tell you that. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/25 "2003-12-02T20:37:26Z")
I agree about Clancy’s voice. Best one since the late Mark Lenard’s. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/26 "2003-12-02T22:32:18Z")
Question: When Scudder healed Ben, did he have to take a life in order to do it? Or is that only the case when the person is actually dead, not about to die? What did he drain life from? Nothing withered, that I could see. But maybe since Scudder seems to be beyond human, the rules don’t apply to him just like they don’t apply to Management. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/27 "2003-12-02T22:58:30Z")
It may also imply that the “save a life, take a life” formula is either false or something that can be overcome. Maybe we’ll find out in a damn year! ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/28 "2003-12-02T23:09:03Z")
Well, remember when Ben healed his own face? It didn’t seem to take any energy from anywhere else. He was in a cabin with Lodz, and Lodz certainly wasn’t weakened by the experience. If Scudder was a vision, then Ben could have healed himself and thus, according to what happened in Black Blizzard, not need to take energy from another source. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/29 "2003-12-03T03:58:11Z")
I think the death of Loedz will coincide with the death of Apollonia, only to be replaced with Sophie and Jonesy. ---
**Author:** ![DaPearl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@DaPearl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaPearl)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/30 "2003-12-03T04:15:51Z")
**Rubysteak** , I believe _Deadwood_ will premiere in Febuary. It stars Keith Carradine and Brad Dourif, and Walter Hill is involved in some capacity, though I don’t know the extent. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/31 "2003-12-03T17:05:12Z")
Another reason why Mgmnt. might have taken back Lodz’s sight – it was probably “cheaper” to restore it temporarily. Assuming Mgmnt. knew all along that he was going to betray Lodz to Ben (a pretty safe assumption I think), then perhaps he didn’t have to put as much energy into the gift – or to take as much from elsewhere (as he admits he has to do, just like Ben.) –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Stover9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Stover9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stover9)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/32 "2003-12-03T19:10:21Z")
Just as someone was out to kill Alexi as a child (because he was evil), perhaps Appy is ‘obligated’ by good to do the same to Sophie. She _is_ probably prego with a man with the HS initials (something H. Straub isn’t it?) and perhaps her offspring will produce an Avatar of Darkness. ? ? ? ? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/33 "2003-12-05T04:31:34Z")
Well, restoring Lodz blindness might’ve just been to allay questions. Lodz might’ve hid his restored site as to not have anyone question it - and it’s easier to restore his blindness I gues than have anyone question it. Of course, that’s the practical explanation. I’m sure the TV explanation has to deal with showing contempt, or anything. Anyone notice earlier in the show, Justin was talking with Tommy Dolan, and after Dolan agreed to give him radio time in exchange for exclusive rights on his story, Justin said “the phrase ‘deal with the devil’ comes to mind”. Dolan replied “Oh, come on, I’m not that bad.” Justin said “Oh, no, no you’re not”. Even at the time I figured that was a little somewhat subtle foreshadowing - as he meant “Oh no, _you’re_ not.” ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/34 "2003-12-05T04:52:07Z")
Good news: TV Guide reported that HBO is “on the verge” of ordering Season 2 of Carnivale for early '05. “Daniel Knauf promises a faster pace and several new characters–but not the long-awaited showdown between good (fugitive Ben, left) and evil (Brother Justin). ‘That’s our endgame. The whole story is building toward that.’ Instead, Knauf says, ‘elements’ of their worlds will begin to collide in Season 2. ‘But Brother Justin and Ben having a lightsaber fight? That WON’T happen.’” Too bad about the lightsabers, eh? I am discouraged by the idea that only “elements” of Justin and Ben’s world will begin to collide. I’m ready for a head-on collision, man! However, I am encouraged by the promise of a faster pace. Looking forward to Deadwood too…February '04 is right around the corner. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/35 "2003-12-06T15:33:14Z")
Oh man. Finally saw the episode last night… Man oh man oh man! First thoughts- Lodz’s gift was ‘temporary’ just to push Ben into doing what he did. Management gave it to him and then took it away afterwords (Management knew what was going to occur, and it may be that the big M is at the level where he can ‘store up’ power by giving / taking health?) Rita and Felix? Beautiful. I was actually more worried about them than I’ve been for fictional characters in a long, long time. And it worked out. When Felix had the gun, I was worried… But… Wow. Just beautiful. Okay. So Ben has to intentionally kill in order to resurrect. Made me think of when he was in the mines and saw Scudder, and said, “I know who you are!” and Scudder answered, “Yes, but do you know what that means?” He may well not have been talking about knowing who he was, but about the murder he was about to commit- as in, “Do you know what it means that we have to commit murder,” or “Do you know what it means that I -am- committing murder?” Justin. Holy crap. I mean, every time I think the character can’t get more interresting. He obviously didn’t know what his mentor’s ‘sin’ was (and I do believe it was Iris, not him!), and his repentance afterwords? Man. Most powerfully charged scene I’ve seen in a long, long time. And you know we haven’t heard the last of Balthus… (two bits says he’s one of the first to ‘interact’ with the Carnivale, but only in a peripheral way.) Loved the bit with Dolan shaking hands with Justin, “It reminds me of the addage about making deals with the devil.” Dolan smiles, “I’m not that bad!” Justin nods, “Of course you’re not.” Beautiful. And his end speech? I need a transcript. I -really- need a transcript! Samson shows it’s all about his people. He may be bitter, he may be angry, but he -loves- the carnies, and he’s willing to do whatever it takes to protect them. And lastly… Jonesy. Wow. From day one I loved this guy. Now, he’s a freakin’ superhero to me. And he better survive, damnit! Going in even after Sophie’s ‘payback’ to him… Wow. Just wow. I’m still stunned by it all. THERE DAMN WELL BETTER BE ANOTHER SEASON!!! ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/36 "2003-12-06T20:34:48Z")
I haven’t re-read through this whole thread so pardon me if this has been said already – there’s a survey at the website [www.hbo.com](http://www.hbo.com) for fans of Carnivale. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing – that HBO is looking for input like this. What do you think? Could it be good? Or could it be some corporate bigwig looking for something negative to justify not bringing it back? ---
**Author:** ![kasuo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8c91f0/32.png) [@kasuo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kasuo)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167/37 "2003-12-06T21:00:51Z")
Was there ever mention why Scudder killed one of the Babylon miners? Could it have any connection with how he healed Ben’s wound in the season finale? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivale-11-30-the-day-that-was-the-day-spoilers/216167.md?page=1)